??? Breeding at all the right thing to do?

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by tinksmama, Aug 26, 2006.

  1. tinksmama

    tinksmama New Member

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    Ok, I don't want to get totally flamed here, but I have a question.... I've read a million reasons why mixed breeds on purpose are a bad idea... too many dogs, etc. Then why is it ok to breed dogs of the same breed? if this world is too full of animals without homes, why continue to populate? And if you truly don't make any money or benefit from breeding ,say, 2 champion labs, b/c of vet costs, then why do it at all?
    IMO,and it's just IMO, there are too many unwanted animals, and I just can't see in my mind why it's ok to continually overpopulate with'breeds" vs. just regular old mutts,and spaying etc as needed...
    Please don't yell at me! I don't breed dogs, never will, but i also am not into 'breeds' as being so special! To me a good dog is a good dog, and they're all valuable to their families!
    and on petfinder.com, there are literally 1000's of purebreeds,and my mutts will never be up there, if I got 10 more mixes, i'd spay and care for them.same as if I got 10 more and they were pure...
    isn't it all, when you get right down to it, us humans meddling where we maybe have no right to? For instance,what makes someone,a breeder of poodles superior to a breeder of pekepoos? in 20 years, those pekepoos will probably be recognized anyway... and in the end, they're just dogs,if they have responsible owners, they'll be cared for, if not, they'll end up homeless.
     
  2. MomOf7

    MomOf7 Evil Kitty taco eater

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    You have a good point.
    Or you could look at it this way too.
    If every dog owner and breeder was responsible there would be no unwanted pets:(
     
  3. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    I never understood the "Too many animals in need of homes" reason. It doesn't make since to me.

    The reason to continue breeding outstanding purebred dogs is just to be sure there will be oustanding purebred dogs. Imagine if all the reponsible breeders stopped breeding their dogs. The only ones who would continue to breed are the irresponsible ones or the ones who have accidental litters. All is well and good if you just want a pet, but what if you want something specific? A dog to herd your sheep? A certain behavior trait or personality? A certain size of dog? And I doubt all the "accidental" litters will be health tested, either. If all responsible breeders stopped breeding, it would be a complete disaster to the domestic dog as we know it.
     
  4. showpug

    showpug New Member

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    I have to side with Gempress on this one...

    The key to responsible breeders is the reason BEHIND why they breed in the first place, preservation. If we lost responsible breeders we would loose purebred dogs as we know them. Dogs are not only companions, but to some people they are a very necessary tool to complete different jobs. i.e. police dogs, search and rescue, guide dogs for the blind, hunting dogs, herding dogs. Breeders that breed dogs and DON'T make money at it are doing it because they love purebred dogs and they love to preserve their original purpose.

    I agree that a mix holds no more value IMO than does a purebred, but you will find that the breeders who purposely breed mixes generally do so in an irresponsible manner. Top breeders who breed purebred dogs require the dog ALWAYS be returned to them in a situation where an owner can no longer keep it. They are responsible for every dog they bring into the world for it's entire life. If everyone who bred dogs had this requirement then there would be a lot less dogs ending up homeless. This is why in general, the majority of dogs you see in shelters are mixed breeds...
     
  5. stevinski

    stevinski Int CH - $uperBitch

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    i dont mind people breeding as long as they have a REASON :D
     
  6. tempura tantrum

    tempura tantrum Shiba Inu Slave

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    Gempress and Showpug- fantastic! I agree 100%

    It's a cute thought to imagine everyone in the world taking a "breeding hiatus" to cure the pet overpopulation program. But that's all it will ever be. As Gempress pointed out, the only people that would be halfway likely to follow such an initiative would be the responsible ones. Puppymillers and BYBs could give a flying rip- they'd continue to do what they've been doing for ages.

    Thus, it makes FAR more sense to me to come up with realistic and constructive solutions to a problem- solutions that could actually be implemented. Nevermind the fact that preaching to responsible breeders is preaching to the choir. Responsible breeders produce so few litters each year (and they KNOW where all those puppies are, have S/N contracts on them, keep in touch with owners, etc.), that they're really not the problem.

    And Gempress is right on the money. Breeding specific kinds of dogs is a way to preserve history. It is also the only way that some people can own a dog at ALL.

    For example...ME.

    When I was buying my first dog, my requirements were incredibly strict. So strict in fact, that the ONLY breed that fit them was the Shiba Inu. Ten years ago you could've checked every rescue in WA, and you wouldn't have found a Shiba (in fact, in volunteering at the Humane Society for the past 6 years I have found a grand total of ONE). And even if I HAD found a Shiba, the liklihood that it would tolerate cats and infants (and be show-quality), was slim to none.

    I don't see purebred dogs as having any more inherent worth than the muttlies. It's just that I have fallen in love with this breed- this breed that was the ONE that fit my lifestyle. I also love showing dogs. It's a great hobby, one that I have dreamed of pursuing since I was 8 years old. Obviously, I couldn't do this with a mixed breed dog.
     
  7. tinksmama

    tinksmama New Member

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    Thanks for your replies...:) Ok, i understand the necessity of a breed, like a working dog, or just b/c one is particulary appealing...but I'm not 100% sure it's preserving history,honestly. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, It's just weighing in my mind... but most of the breeds we love now, are so different from the breed standards of 30 or 40 years ago, some of them are hardly the same animal! Like bulldogs, they seem to be bred no with an eye toward enhancing flaws and weaknesses, while they're totally cute with those smushed faces, they can't even breathe properly! it appears to me,and i love watching dog and cat shows, etc- that what we have for standards today are not too similiar to the past champion dogs, so it's not preserving history, it seems that each decade brings a new refinement to what a dog should be, and then it gets bred into them for better or worse! Like chihuahuas are tinier, bulldogs are smushier, lhasa's have this flowing fur like nothing in nature...etc. Do you know what I mean?
    And the working ones seem to look very different from their previous generations too, so I don't think for a lot of breeds it's history, though for some they haven't been altered too much in 50 years or so, but rather mankind "creating" some desired look/trait into a line of dogs- which again is simply people encouraging more dogs into an overcrowded dog world...
    But again, i can see the joy of saying, "I love poodles",and being able to go look for a poodle.
    I guess the whole thing I think is it really has not as much to with 'breed perfection' for most of us, as it seems to change with the times anyway, but the hard cold reality of 2 kinds of people in this world, those who take care of their animals and those who don't.
     
  8. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    for me, it's about health and temperament. we need responsible breeders out there breeding for the right reasons. we need breeders who are x-raying hips and elbows, CERFing eyes, checking thyroids, doing holter tests. we need people who are breeding with an eye to the correct temperament- who are not producing fearful, snappy labs, who are not producing human-aggressive or fearful pit bulls, etc.
     
  9. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I get what you are saying. It's something I've been thinking about for a while, and I've turned it over in my head so many times it's now a twisted ball of yarn;) Every time I think I figure out my stance on it, I start seeing things a different way. Have you read Ray Coppinger's book? I think that's what started all this confusion for me!

    Some purebred dogs do still serve their original pupose, although it seems to me that some mix breeds can do it just as well. I know of someone who imported their herding dog from Australia (I think), because they produce the "best mix" for herding. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was mostly border collie with smaller amounts of 2 or three other breeds included. The dog worked every day, and apparently did a fantastic job. And really, I wonder what the percentage of border collies who actually are herding as a living is. I would guess that it is quite small compared to the total population. And I do mean herding for a living, not being trained just for herding competitions. After all, those are for our amusement, and I don't know that it is necessary to breed for that.

    And what about breeds who have such extreme health problems? The bulldog was mentioned. Are there any working bulldogs left? And if there are, are they the type being produced by responsible show breeders? Is it okay to breed a dog who has such issues because we like them?

    But, then again, it's like the gun ban arguement. If guns are banned, the only people who will have them are the criminals. Backyard breeders shouldn't be breeding dogs with issues either, and they certainly shouldn't be the only ones breeding.

    I honestly don't think anything will ever change. People are too set in their ways, and too passionate in their beliefs, to allow change. I (in my personal, passionate belief;) ) think an ideal situation would be to change the way dogs are registered. Most types of Warmblood horses are required to be tested by their parent organization before they can be approved for breeding, or be given full registration. A group of individual judges approved by the breed group inspects the animals at certain ages, and decides if they fit the breed standards. Some organizations require performance results and x-rays as well. You still have people breeding and selling unapproved horses, but at least it is clear they either have not been tested, or did not fit the breed standards.

    Unfortunately, I really don't see it changing at any point.
    I think that's the clearest answer we'll ever get on the subject.
     
  10. Babyblue5290

    Babyblue5290 Happy Meal. Yum.

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    I volunteer at the shelter in Tacoma and since I've been there (a bit more then a year) there have been a total of 5 shiba inu's (2 being mixes, but obviously mainly shiba) at our shelter. One was just a gorgeous dog!! She was just completley gorgeous!
     
  11. AnimalLoverCatRescuer

    AnimalLoverCatRescuer New Member

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    The problem with breeding is that it has gotten out of hand. People are in it for the money and not to produce perfect flawless healthy REGISTERABLE dogs. The compeltely ethical reputable breeders out there are so few compared tot eh puppymillers and BYBs just in it for the money. There would be no problem at all if there were just a handful of breeders for each breed. I wish there would have been some sort of restrictions on breeding, like certain tests you have to pass or licenses you have to hold to show you know what you are doing. Imagine that, the real breeders would pass with flying colors and the BYB/puppymillers would be like huh? I never heard of x-raying hips and elbows (or whatever) why would I do that it would cost too much?

    The other problem with breeds like the designer mutts (peke-a-poos, puggles, doodles, etc) is that they are not registerable and the "breeders" don't do any sort of testing and certifications beofre they begin breeding. They are purely in it for the money because people are moronic enough to pay $1000 for a mutt. I mean, we owned a Border Terrier Lab mix when I was little. Should we have let him breed and sold his Borlab puppies for $1000? The whole idea of that is just absurd. They are no different then shelter mutts either. Neither one is likely to have been tested at all. Maybe the shelters should go around determining what 2 breeds each dog looks like and posting their "breed" as that and more people would come and adopt them :rolleyes:
     
  12. tempura tantrum

    tempura tantrum Shiba Inu Slave

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    As far as Shibas go, it IS preserving history. A look back in breed books will give you proof of that. Our dogs look very similar to those of yesterday- and it's due to the concentrated effort first of NIPPO, and now many American breeders.

    Furthermore, many of them are EXCELLENT hunters. Both Tai and Kimi have successful boar hunters just 2 generations back. I believe The Ryukyu program in Japan actively hunts with these dogs, and they're not alone. My two both go back to Ryukyu dogs, and those lines have not been diluted in my animals by any means. My backyard is a burial ground for small woodland creatures. My own bitch has successfully killed birds, mice, rats, and possums to name a few. I've seen an adult Shiba bitch from my girls' lines take a bird straight out of the AIR.

    In short...as far as GOOD breeders go, Shibas are doing pretty darn well.

    I believe much of this has to do with the fact that our standard is very functional. What is ugly in a Shiba also just happens to be non-functional for a hunting dog. Over-angulation, short tails, skittish, snappy (or overly friendly and goofy) temperaments, etc. etc.

    As a whole, I'm very proud of American Shiba breeders. I think as the years go by we've generally produced typier and typier animals. Japanese breeders are realizing that we are very serious about doing this right- and because of this, they're entrusting better and better dogs to our care.

    In terms of Shibas at the Humane Society- when I'm not at school in Oregon, I volunteer at the Tacoma Humane Society as well- small world! I've seen a few of the dogs labeled "Shiba" there-and to be honest, at least 2 of them (that I saw), were mis-labled Jindos. (Which are getting quite popular in the Tacoma area- go figure!) Without going so in-depth that I bore every one to tears, they were too tall for our standard, and had no urajiro, which is a dead give away. (The Japanese make a point of noting that a Shiba missing urajiro just isn't a Shiba). I did see a lovely white boy the last time I volunteered. However, such a sighting is disheartening. We really discourage the breeding of white Shibas (they're not an acceptable color), and while even the best breeders have litters with them, they're *usually* pretty rare. When they start showing up in shelters, you know that pet store/BYB types have gotten a handle on the "RARE- WHITE SHIBA!!" market, and are milking it for all it's worth...

    I hate to see my breed getting popular. They really shouldn't be. They're horrid dogs for 99% of the population.
     
  13. Babyblue5290

    Babyblue5290 Happy Meal. Yum.

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    Hey Tempera Tantrum I wonder if I've seen you at the shelter! I'm there pretty often! Small world huh! :p lol

    I've seen so many of their dog breeds mis-labeled! lol It bugs me a bit but oh well lol
     
  14. tempura tantrum

    tempura tantrum Shiba Inu Slave

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    I wonder if we have too!

    LOL- the amount of times I've seen what is clearly a pitbull mix, labeled as a Lab...well I can't even count them anymore. But I'm certainly not going to correct them on that one!

    I actually had a friend accidently adopt a pit mix because of this. Her Mom had made one request when they went to the shelter- "No pitbulls." She was terrified of them. I think about a week after they had adopted "Oly," they were walking him down the street when someone complimented them on their pitbull's extraordinarily good manners. Her mom absolutely freaked out when she realized this person knew what they were talking about.

    Nevertheless- he's now a well-loved member of the family!
     
  15. sweetbassets

    sweetbassets New Member

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    I do under stand what you are saying. Lol.. the smushed faces are cute, but there is a reason for it. They are the same as they were in the 1800's when they were bred for bullbaiting. The short muzzle and wide lower jaw were needed for the dog to clamp itself to the bull's nose like a vise, and the nose had to be upturned so that the dog could still breathe while clinging to the bull. They also had to be low to the ground in order to avoid the bulls horns. They are acually very close to the original bulldogs back then. When bullbaiting was outlawed the use for them deminished and the breed was going to die off, but a few who loved the breed decided to try to keep the breed alive. Though ferocity was no longer desirable they wanted to retain all the dog's other great qualities.They proceeded to eliminate the undesirable characteristics and to preserve and accentuate the finer qualities. Scientific breeding brought results, so that within a few generations the English Bulldog became one of the finest physical specimens minus its original viciousness.
    Even though what they were used for was crul and thankfully is now rightfully illegal. If the few people who loved the breed wouldn't have bred then we wouldn't have these wounderful dogs around anymore.
    I do agree 100% with what AnimalLoverCatRescuer said though.
     
  16. Babyblue5290

    Babyblue5290 Happy Meal. Yum.

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    Yeah that's one that I won't correct either! I think the one breed I see mis-labeled the most is Catahoula Leoperd dogs! I've see them labeld as lab/australian shepherds :rolleyes: lol
     
  17. Squidbert

    Squidbert Scum scum scum scum..SCUM

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    I totally understand what you are saying.. I've thought that way too.. thinking "Is breeding to better a breed still a good reason when SO many other dogs are dying from homelessness?"
    So in a way I agree.. however I don't think respectable breeders should stop breeding.. I wish there was some way to put a hold on any breeding at all.. then all the homeless pups would get homes.. then the breeding could pick up again.. only reputable breeders of course.. and then the problem would be solved.. the only way something like that could ever happen is through very very strict laws that I'm sure will never be passed.. :(
     
  18. Caren+Bailey

    Caren+Bailey New Member

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    I don't think that respectable Breeders should stop breeding.
    However i don't understand why if it's a BYB people always say about the puppies ending up in a shelter.
    I mean to me if a dog is a mutt or a purebred it also has a chance of ending up in a shelter.
    There is no gaurauntee (sp) that b/c you are selling a purebred "Pet quality" (not show b/c they are being taken to be shown) dog to someone that is going to have it for life with no reason for putting it in a shelter.
     
  19. momsgsps

    momsgsps mom of gsps

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    Hi! new here, but I thought this needed a response. Most responsible breeders have contracts that require the dogs to go back to the breeder, not to a shelter, rescue or even sold or given to anyone else. Hence the name responsible! my contracts are 5 pages long and my people know that not only do they risk legal actions if they give away their puppies, but my rath which is much much worse! my puppies are all sold on a co ownership as well as a s/n contract (unless show quality). No matter where they live, they are my dogs!
     
  20. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    the smushed faces are cute, but there is a reason for it. They are the same as they were in the 1800's when they were bred for bullbaiting. The short muzzle and wide lower jaw were needed for the dog to clamp itself to the bull's nose like a vise, and the nose had to be upturned so that the dog could still breathe while clinging to the bull. They also had to be low to the ground in order to avoid the bulls horns. They are acually very close to the original bulldogs back then.

    You've got to be kidding. English Bulldogs today suffer from dwarfed legs, hips so narrow they can't give birth naturally, and faces so screwed up they can't breathe properly. This is hardly the picture of a dog who can hold its own against a bull. I think the original EBs were more like today's English Staffs.
     

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