Breeder 'good practice' or dubious?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Delisay, Oct 5, 2006.

  1. Delisay

    Delisay New Member

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    Can someone please advise me about this:

    One of the breeds I am considering buying is rare in my country. A breeder that I spoke to sells them for 3 to 4 times the cost of other pedigree toy dogs. She also sells them desexed only - because, she says, she doesn't want people to breed from imperfect animals (or cross-breed) and she's only being responsible. Therefore, also, she doesn't sell them before 14 weeks. My thoughts are:

    - If the breed is so rare, then the more the better. Preventing breeding sounds like securing her market.

    - If her dogs are such high quality show animals, what is the chance of so many puppies being born which are so inferior that breeding from them would be "irresponsible"? Again it sounds like possible market protection.

    - I was taught not to de-sex very young animals because it's important for health reasons to wait for their full adult development before removing their hormone supply.

    - It's not possible to really know what quality of adult will emerge from a puppy just a few weeks old, and therefore whether one might eventually want to breed from it. I hate the notion of making a premature decision about something so important.

    - I hate the idea of leaving a puppy in a kennel for the majority of its most formative weeks - 7 to 16 - when I could be nurturing and teaching it so much in that time.

    What do you think???

    Thanks!
    Delisay
     
  2. Babyblue5290

    Babyblue5290 Happy Meal. Yum.

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    What breed is this?
     
  3. Delisay

    Delisay New Member

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    In the Bichon group - small dog, 9-10 inches as an adult.
     
  4. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    ' A breeder that I spoke to sells them for 3 to 4 times the cost of other pedigree toy dogs. "

    Can you tell me the price pls so i can understand what a toy breed goes for?

    "She also sells them desexed only"

    My 1st thing is rescue and i prefer this on one part reduce rescues.

    "Preventing breeding sounds like securing her market."

    It cant be taken both way however im a breeder buyers can and will screw you and you can have a litter of mutts in a second which is how long it takes for the deed to be done.

    You are also not considering if the breed is rare selling intact dogs for breeding require you to help them find outcross studs or bitches which is very hard with rare breeds.

    IN addition when you sell intact dogs for breeding or as pets that are intact you have to be a mentor for someone who wanted to breed or someone who
    changed the pet purchase into a breeding dog because they are so rare.

    "- If her dogs are such high quality show animals, what is the chance of so many puppies being born which are so inferior that breeding from them would be "irresponsible"? Again it sounds like possible market protection."

    See above and truth is best of the best for me is about 2-3 pups in a litter of 9, meeting the standard of excellence maybe 50-60 % and dogs that are not in standard or are small in one part etc I BREED big dogs is 1-3 pups.
    So they dont need to be a pet quality to be deemed a pet dog

    '- I was taught not to de-sex very young animals because it's important for health reasons '

    I agree because in big dogs it can take the bulk out of dogs males and they look sleeker vs rougher which is why i stopped neutering young.
    Females i also dont spay till 1 year _ again I breed huge dogs that mature slowly . And the bladder control was not there for the 1 female i spayed at 5 months.

    I dont think this would apply to little dogs but cant say either way.

    "
    ' It's not possible to really know what quality of adult will emerge from a puppy just a few weeks old, and therefore whether one might eventually want to breed from it. I hate the notion of making a premature decision about something so important. '

    That is why she fixes them this above statement if you want to become a breeder and get her stock she must know from the get go .
    Pets owners who may " want to breed" but do not from the get go start the mentoring needed is why breeders give up and fix the dogs.

    Mentoring is like marrying a stranger . Some people can only mentor so much- Breeders do have lives I spent 1 hr with one of my " breeders" who wishes to breed and when she breeds it will be a full time job to help her.

    A good breeder wishes also to protect their line. Ive studed my dogs out to other breeders who screwed up the line by breeding pets with diseases .

    So all in all dont sound weird to me sounds like self preservation for her line and the quality of life she wishes to have.

    - I hate the idea of leaving a puppy in a kennel for the majority of its most formative weeks - 7 to 16 - when I could be nurturing and teaching it so much in that time.

    This i do agree with which is why my contract says breed my dog without permession untill the female is old enough for spay and you owe me 10000 dollars and the pups and i will take the dog back from you .
    Males i have to trust so I am now considering vastomy early.

    But at least they are in the new homes at 9-10 wks.

    Bu chance is this a Bolonka?

    JD
     
  5. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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  6. wolfsoul

    wolfsoul I Love My Belgian

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    That really depends on the breed and what one constitutes as "show quality." A rare breed is likely to be showable, if not particularily show "quality," and an entire litter of pups can be showable, even if they aren't really show "quality" -- know what I mean? For instance Jaguar, one of the girls in my sig, has round eyes, unparallel headplanes, no coat, big ears, a hooked gay tail, too little bone, and she's easty-westy. But she has points towards her Can CH and will likely achieve her Can CH by next year. She ain't show quality, but she certainly is showable! That is what you get in less common breeds that not only don't have alot of other competition in the own breed, but likely have a less developed breed standard. And so an entire litter of rare breed pups could easily be sold as "show quality," and likely would in a BYB situation.

    Sounds to me like this lady isn't talking about her own pups being inferior specimens -- but rather the ones they will potentially be bred to! It isn't uncommon for a breder to spay/neuter at a young age. I personally believe in waiting until the dog is physically mature before altering, but that's just me. All breeders should do what they think is best when protecting their breed. It isn't true that "more is better" when it's a rare breed. All breeds start out rare -- look what happens to them in the end. Sounds to me like she is just protecting it from (likely) the inevitable.
     
  7. vanillasugar

    vanillasugar just call me Nilly

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    I consider this very good practice on the breeders behalf. She's looking out for her dogs ultimate health and well being. Breeding should not be taken lightly by any means, and she's ensuring that it's left to those who truly know what they're doing. Good for her.

    Also, there's lots of new information about desexing at such a young age, and I've heard it's actually becoming favoured, but don't have any real substantial info on it, and it may be I'm thinking cats not dogs... perhaps someone else knows more?
     
  8. wolfsoul

    wolfsoul I Love My Belgian

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    The problem with early altering is that it affects the bones. While cutting down on cancers related to the sex organs, you are greatly increasing the risk of bone cancer. It leaves the growth plates open alot longer and so the dog tends to grow up taller and lankier. Females tend to look like males, males tend to look like females. Personally I believe in waiting until the dog is completely done maturing, physically -- however I am not sorry that people practise early neutering. When you a sell a puppy unaltered, regardless of contracts, you always take a risk. The more dogs neutered, the less dogs ending up in shelters. Might not be something I practise, but good for those who do.
     
  9. AnimalLoverCatRescuer

    AnimalLoverCatRescuer New Member

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    Everything you mentioned about this breeder sounds excellant to me. She is being completely responsible like she should be and not letting her pups be carelessly bred by inexperienced people who are just in it to make the big bucks. When you breed, it can cost thousands of dollars by the time you are done health testing and certifying the dog and everything. Breeding is not for everyone especially the inexperienced and the fact that it is a rare breed makes no difference.

    She sounds really great and I wish all breeders were like this one! Why can't all breeders live up to the responsibility of bringing dogs into the world like this breeder does? I like how she sounds a lot.

    What breed are we talking about and what is the cost?
     
  10. Delisay

    Delisay New Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Given that I so much like the 'stocky' look in small dogs, the following concerns me about early de-sexing:

    2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

    "...bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months ... those spayed at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates ...

    ...bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.

    ....Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions ...an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. ... the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament.

    ...spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture.

    ...dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age.

    ...there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches, and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs ...

    ...dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer, a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and that affects both genders.

    ...Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.

    ...in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months ... an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.

    ...American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression."

    (etc)


    Hmm... not a simple issue, and no doubt already much discussed. I think I would prefer a more natural approach where possible.

    Del.
     
  11. AnimalLoverCatRescuer

    AnimalLoverCatRescuer New Member

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    I work in a lot of rescue situations so I always alter the animal no matter what the age before going to a new home. I think in rescue situations it is the best way to go. If a dog ended up unwanted in a shelter then you have to do everything possible to make sure the dog is altered and doesn't lead to more unwanted animals being born.

    A good breeder I would think would try to establish a sort of relationship with the people who purchase their pups. That way they can keep up with them and remind them when to alter, they also usually require a contract to be signed agreeing to do it. Problem is that many people either decide they don't have the money, or they are just lazy and don't do it or they just aren't good at keeping their dog from getting loose and mating with another. With irresponsible breeders, they don't do follow ups to make sure the person alters the pet.

    So it is really a tough call. I am more experienced with cats and I alter them all at 2 lb or 8 weeks or immediately after I get them. I don't think the same happens with them because I have personally and I know dozens of people who do pediatric altering with cats and they live healthy lives. I really think it is different in the case of cats. I am still learning about dogs. But I think dogs from the pounds and shelters should be altered before going home and the breeders don't have to do it but they should make sure the buyers do by a certain age.

    I don't see anything wrong with spaying and neutering dogs at 6 months-1 year. Cats I would never ever wait that long because too many bad behaviors start by then and cancers and disease are prevented by altering BEFORE the first heat.
     
  12. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I would rather see a breeder give a refund of a certain amount after proof of spaying/neutering.
     
  13. stevinski

    stevinski Int CH - $uperBitch

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    obviously not, just because its rare doesnt mean it should be overbred, especially since only a few will be breeding worthy, and i doupt shes trying to secure the market, more trying to secure the future of the breed

    because not every dog in a litter will be the highest of quality, and she doesnt want her puppies to be irresponsibly bred, he dogs may be high quality and if they are then they should be going to show homes

    i personally am fully for neutering and spaying at whatever age, i mean its better then having another litter in the world, that would just lead to more dogs dyin in shelters

    exactly, you dont no if the dog is going to turn out, high quality or not, so spaying the dog wil just solve the problem, and besides that is quite wrong, show Prospects can normally be spotted by a breeder at a young age.

    this is what most impress's me about the breeder, i mean any bad breeder is just going to want to get rid of the puppies as early as possible, and besides shes the breeder, she knows her breed, and shes sociallising the pups very well before they go to there new home

    find out a bit more about her breeding practices but at the moment to me she sems to be a amazingly responsible breeder
     
  14. stevinski

    stevinski Int CH - $uperBitch

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    I completely agree, i mean why take the risk of a bad litter being bred, and i'm sure she doesnt de-sex all of the puppies because that would completely take away the reason for her breeding, but i really think she truly cares for her dogs
     
  15. cindr

    cindr Guest

    If we look back in time, lets say 20 yrs ago. When the Rottie was introduced into Canada and the USA. Well the price for a Pink papered dog was extensive. So with that everyone had to have one. So now people here in our two countries see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. So now we do not practise the breeding skills as they do in Germany. Here there are no breed wardens.

    So with that note the breed it self is being abused an ruined. This does not happen in Germany. There the breed warden servayed the dog and or dogs deemed to be bred together. If in which he /she states no these dogs do not provide the quaility required they then are not bred. Get caught breeding over there with out the breed wardens authority.see what happens.

    Here it is made to easy to be able to breed. There are no rules and or regulations what so ever. Anyone from mutt breeder's (designer) dogs to the purebreds can just get bred.
     
  16. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

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    I guess a breeder would have to ask themselves . . . "Is there a bigger chance of my dogs having health problems from early spay/neuter? Or is there a bigger chance of some idiot breeding a pet quality dog that I sell unspayed/unneutered?" And really, that's a question every breeder has to decide for themselves.

    Personally, if I were a breeder, I would spay/neuter pet quality puppies before they left my care. People can give all the "right" answers to your questions and then turn out to be complete twits later. Dogs can get loose by accident. Or maybe that six month old labrador ends up dogsat by a moron who spontaneously decides that he'll breed her with a german shepherd, assuming the owner will be thrilled to sell "labrasheps".

    Even if a dog's breeder can legally take it back if it's left unspayed, that won't "unmake" any puppies born in the meantime. :(

    Now, I do agree that puppies should be raised in the home, not a kennel. Did this breeder actually say she raises puppies in a kennel or were you just assuming?
     
  17. Chrissy&B

    Chrissy&B New Member

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    Yes, this is a common practice in not just Germany, but also over here in Slovenia and other European FCI countries :) .....I'm quite happy about that!
     

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