Breeder Ethics/Dilemma.

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by CharlieDog, May 12, 2008.

  1. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    What would you do in the following situations? What do you think the wrong thing to do would be? Why? (This can be about ANY breed, but for the sake of the Cases I've already thought out, we'll say that you are breeding working dogs... any work, by the way, but work that requires drive(mostly prey drive)

    Case/Scenario 1

    You have two dogs, titled, health tested and cleared. Both dogs ahave excellent temperaments, nice conformation and work ethic. You breed them once, and get excellent puppies. Exactly what you were hoping for with this cross of bloodlines. The puppies are extremely nice all around. Many go on to be titled before or soon after they are a year old. (Also, in this one, I'm not talking about conformation titles, I'm talking about working titles, lets assume the conformation is second to the health, temperament and working drive here.) (An, lets not debate working younger dogs. Lets assume also that they are earning titles that are not straining their joints and such)

    You breed this cross again a year and a half later. Same parents. This time the puppies are not as outgoing, not as drivey, not as sound conformation wise. Would you try again with this cross? If not, you wouldn't even try one more time? Why or why not?

    Case/Scenario Two

    (The younger dog can be either a girl or boy. It doesn't matter)

    You have a young dog, and you have their father. The younger dog is say, a year and a half. The father is a nice successful dog, titled and campaigned well. Say he's eight. Not old, but not really young either. The younger dog is well on her way to being as successful as her father. Then the father starts having seizures or develops a cancer well known in the breed.

    Would you breed the younger dog? Or would you breed it if you researched the lines you were breeding to even more carefully than normal for seizures/cancer? Why? Why not?

    Case/Scenario Tres

    You have a nice conformationally sound (for working, say, the dog probably isn't going to finish or step foot in Westminster) dog. Excellent drive, temperament, and great health. Would you breed this dog even if you had never titled her? You know she can do the work, but you just haven't gotten around to titling her. You have a stud who would bring out everything that makes her great and round out whatever it is that makes her not so great. Whatever points that may be. Make it up yourself. Would you breed this dog? She can do it. That is not the question. You know if you were to trial her, she could and would win. You just, are, lazy. :p Would you breed her? Or would you wait until you titled her? Would it change if the dog was six? Or eight? And you absolutely wanted to carry her bloodlines in your program? What would you do? What would you consider poor breeding practices?

    Case/Scenario Go

    You have a nice dog, all around great dog. Does his job or his sport well, is highly regarded by everyone in your breed to be an excellent representation of the breed. The problem is, he has a problem. Lets say, he either has DJD1 issues or he is a monorchid, or his bite is not correct, scissor instead of level, something relatively minor, but that has a chance to be passed on to any pups. Remember, we are talking working dogs. This means working dogs who have pretty much split from the show ring for the most part. His bite doesn't matter as long as he doesn't have a wry mouth or something.
    Would you breed this dog? Yes? No? Why not?
    If you did decide to breed, would you just tell the new owners or potential owners of the pups about the problem, or would you go one step further and insure that all pups were spayed and neutered. If so, what would have been the point of breeding him? You've just made more dogs, and the line is still not going any further. Could you justify that?

    Case/Scenario VI

    You produce a litter out of two nice dogs. All the puppies in this litter are extremely shy. All need intense socialization to be even slightly normal. One or two is extremely fearful and all have to be placed into experienced pet homes. None have developed fear aggression, but all are slightly wary of meeting new people and prefer to run away rather than greet. Would you breed these two dogs again? To each other? To another dog? Why or why not again..?

    Play devils advocate with these if you want. I just have way too much time on my hands, and wanted to get a better grasp of what you all think it ethical and unethical. Personally, I'd have problems breeding any of these dogs again. Don't let anyone else response color your judgment and response. Please, no bashing any one for their opinions. You don't have to be a breeder to have an opinion over what the breeder should do.

    (By the way, because I am weird, the Cases are numbered as follows.
    1, numerical
    2, written english
    3, spanish
    there is no four. :D
    5, Japanese
    6, Roman Numerals.

    Thank you for playing along. ;) )
     
  2. #1) Honestly I probably never would have repeated it the first time. I would use what I got from it that was an improvement over the parents. I would DEFINITELY not repeat it a 3rd time EVER.

    2) No I would not use the bitch if the sire began to seize. I MIGHT use her if the sire died of cancer. That is so common in my breed if you eliminated all the dogs who died of cancer before they were 10 there would not be many left to choose from unfortunately.

    3) This one is difficult. Titles do not make the dog, however, I DO think that worthy dogs should be titled before breeding. In the case of a bitch I might use her, but it is not really a true scenario for me because I WOULD have titled the bitch before using her even if I had to hire it done.

    4) In case number 4 (and I must speak from the perspective of my OWN breed). In Rottweilers, generally dogs with bite faults are not bred. Over or under or wry is a DQ in Rotties, and I would not use a dog with any missing tooth. The DJD1 issue I can speak to as I have JUST done this. So yes, I would use a dog with an issue like DJD1 with the current stats in Rottweilers. I would NEVER breed any dog with DJD1 without full and complete public disclosure of the issue. Any puppies in this litter who are graded over DJD1 will not be used. I am also requiring prelims on all puppies, and FULL DISCLOSURE of all results on the OFA website. With Rottweilers indicating that over 40% of the elbow films submitted to the OFA not passing, one can assume that an even greater percentage of the general population is affected with this disease. Of that 40% a whopping 30.5 percent are grade 1. There are no registries or breed clubs which prohibit the use of Rottweilers with elbows graded DJD1. Over time if percentages fall, breeders will gravitate towards selecting dogs who are normal. However at this time the percentage of abnormal dogs generally is nearly identical to the percentage rates of breeding ED+ to ED+. Until we see a differential in these statistics there is essentially at this time no benefit PERCENTAGE WISE between using normal or ED+ individuals. DISCLAIMER: These are my views on the ED issue in Rottweilers. I am not going to engage in a flame war with those who might like to second guess my personal breeding decisions for me, or dispute the statistics collected and published by the OFA.

    5) I would not use any of the produce of this litter for breeding, and I would have to take a hard look at the parents. I would not try the cross again. It is POSSIBLE I would use these dogs again to a different partner. If the issue presented again, even if it were not all of the puppies, the breeding career would be finished.
     
  3. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Thank you Red! It is very interesting to consider what one (because I can't say you without making it sound like I am speaking solely to Red) would do if these issues cropped up in a breeding program.

    I like to think about weird things. :p
     
  4. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    Obviously I'm not a breeder, but these are the first thoughts that come to my mind.

    1. No. First, I don't always like the idea of breeding the same parents two times, let alone three times. If the second breeding did not produce proper specimens of the breed then those two parents do not need to be bred again.

    2. No. The idea is to breed sound dogs, not those that have any kind of health history. Cancer, in my opinion, is big and there is no need to pass that possibility down to a little of 8 or more.

    3. No. If I'm too lazy to title the dog, then surely I'm too lazy to care for a litter of 8 pups.

    4. No. Any dog bred should be a representation of the breed, and not just 'close enough'.

    5. Absolutely not. The parents may be great dogs, but clearly they do not produce the same.
     
  5. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    Case/Scenario 1

    You have two dogs, titled, health tested and cleared. Both dogs ahave excellent temperaments, nice conformation and work ethic. You breed them once, and get excellent puppies. Exactly what you were hoping for with this cross of bloodlines. The puppies are extremely nice all around. Many go on to be titled before or soon after they are a year old. (Also, in this one, I'm not talking about conformation titles, I'm talking about working titles, lets assume the conformation is second to the health, temperament and working drive here.) (An, lets not debate working younger dogs. Lets assume also that they are earning titles that are not straining their joints and such)

    You breed this cross again a year and a half later. Same parents. This time the puppies are not as outgoing, not as drivey, not as sound conformation wise. Would you try again with this cross? If not, you wouldn't even try one more time? Why or why not?

    I do not repeat breedings, EXCEPT when it results in a singleton or small litter...or say, herpesvirus wipes them out.

    Case/Scenario Two

    (The younger dog can be either a girl or boy. It doesn't matter)

    You have a young dog, and you have their father. The younger dog is say, a year and a half. The father is a nice successful dog, titled and campaigned well. Say he's eight. Not old, but not really young either. The younger dog is well on her way to being as successful as her father. Then the father starts having seizures or develops a cancer well known in the breed.

    Would you breed the younger dog? Or would you breed it if you researched the lines you were breeding to even more carefully than normal for seizures/cancer? Why? Why not?

    No....ditto thyroid or midl HD or anything else that might be idiopathic or genetic no one knows. I would inform the owners of the other pups from this litter and the owner of the dam as well. If there was a database the sire would be submitted for the issue.

    Case/Scenario Tres

    You have a nice conformationally sound (for working, say, the dog probably isn't going to finish or step foot in Westminster) dog. Excellent drive, temperament, and great health. Would you breed this dog even if you had never titled her? You know she can do the work, but you just haven't gotten around to titling her. You have a stud who would bring out everything that makes her great and round out whatever it is that makes her not so great. Whatever points that may be. Make it up yourself. Would you breed this dog? She can do it. That is not the question. You know if you were to trial her, she could and would win. You just, are, lazy. :p Would you breed her? Or would you wait until you titled her? Would it change if the dog was six? Or eight? And you absolutely wanted to carry her bloodlines in your program? What would you do? What would you consider poor breeding practices?

    I might, depends on what my plans were for the resultant offspring. Id' have her evaluated by a few people in the breed in a frank manner. S to the 6-8y/o bitch, I don't breed old maidens...that's asking for trouble.

    Case/Scenario Go

    You have a nice dog, all around great dog. Does his job or his sport well, is highly regarded by everyone in your breed to be an excellent representation of the breed. The problem is, he has a problem. Lets say, he either has DJD1 issues or he is a monorchid, or his bite is not correct, scissor instead of level, something relatively minor, but that has a chance to be passed on to any pups. Remember, we are talking working dogs. This means working dogs who have pretty much split from the show ring for the most part. His bite doesn't matter as long as he doesn't have a wry mouth or something.
    Would you breed this dog? Yes? No? Why not?
    If you did decide to breed, would you just tell the new owners or potential owners of the pups about the problem, or would you go one step further and insure that all pups were spayed and neutered. If so, what would have been the point of breeding him? You've just made more dogs, and the line is still not going any further. Could you justify that?

    No I would not...enough nice dogs out there without the issue. I would not put a slightly off bite in the same room with a joint or testicle issue, either.

    Case/Scenario VI

    You produce a litter out of two nice dogs. All the puppies in this litter are extremely shy. All need intense socialization to be even slightly normal. One or two is extremely fearful and all have to be placed into experienced pet homes. None have developed fear aggression, but all are slightly wary of meeting new people and prefer to run away rather than greet. Would you breed these two dogs again? To each other? To another dog? Why or why not again..?

    No. Not to one another or not at all likely.
     
  6. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    First, I don't think I would ever do a repeat cross. Doesn't make any sense to me unless there was only one puppy. So, I would definitely not do a third cross with the same parents.

    No, I would not breed the dog. Thankfully my dog is spayed, but her sire died from cancer at age 8. Her half sister (they share the same sire) has been bred. Cancer is one of the scariest things out there, and there has GOT to be a line that's cancer free (or at least onset after 10... and even that'd be a tough decision for me).

    The dog WOULD be appropriately titled before being bred. Many say they don't have the money for showing, but if there is money for puppies, there is definitely money to show the dog too.

    Unless the dog was the first DC (in lots of years, something like 1940s was the last one) in my breed, I would not breed a DJD1 or monorchid dog. I would however breed the 'off bite' dog as long as it doesn't inhibit the dogs ability to chew/live. I would definitely be breeding it to a bitch who had a history of good bites. All puppy buyers would know in advance about the sire's bite problem.

    I would probably breed the sire or bitch again, but to different dogs. Temperament is such an unknown topic that I'd be willing to try again with a breeding (to an even/well tempered match).

    I have not bred... blah blah blah... but I tend to agree, that unless there are extenuating cirucmstances, I would not breed any of these dogs.
     
  7. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    I'd have to agree with Red on all counts.
     
  8. For the record, I would not consider breeding any dog who was missing a testicle.

    Other immediate deal breakers for me in my breed would include any heart issue, incorrect temperament, or any abnormal hip rating.
     
  9. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    Scenerio #1

    It would depend. This sort of thing happend to a friend of mine, sort of. The first litter had 2 exceptional puppies, grew up to be great, cadaver and patrol dog. The rest had varying strengths in Schutzhund sport. 2 out of 8. They bred another litter 2 years later, 8-10 exceptional (at least that's what was thought at the time they were sold so there was limited accuracy), the 2 that were sold to "pet" homes had come back at some point after a year old for boarding and training. One they tried to buy back he was totally different than what he was at 10 weeks. Anyway that breeding was repeated again with the same results as the second time.

    There are a lot of variables, I guess I'd have to go with my gut feeling at the time. What type of homes are lined up, what do I need for my breeding program, what are my goals, etc. I guess for right now my answer would be NO, but i leave breeding up to people that know what they're doing. I have no desire to breed dogs, I can find too many good ones right now without having to worry about entire litters of them.

    Scenerio #2

    No, I probably wouldn't, health is as big of factor as anything in a working dog. It sucks to spend the first 2-3 years at least training this working dog, building a bond and expecting it to work to at least 8-10 and have 2-4 years of retired life of luxery, only to have it die young. 8 is young to me, my oldest girl now is almost 9 and she still does everything with me like she was 3.

    Scenerio Tres

    I may. If the dog is on her way to being titled, I know what I want in a breeding female is in her I would. She would get her titles later. I hesitate to say that, because you get all sorts of wanna be's claiming their dogs can "work" and don't need titles, which at its purest form is true. That's assuming their dogs can work. I've run into too many that tie their dog out at the end of a chain, stress the crap out of it till it bites and say, "see, he's a "real" dog. If I were to get a dog, or breed a dog from an untitled bitch, you better believe that dog will be tested in a neutral place by me or someone I trust.

    Scenerio go

    No I would not. Monorchid, NO djd in the case of rott's I think its like 40% of their registered breeders, but overall, in any breed I would not. a missing tooth wouldn't stop me, malformed jaws or multiple missing teeth or malfromed bites, defineatly not. Missing testicles, teeth, weak teeth etc are all genetic.

    scenerio VI

    Maybe to different dogs. One or two shy ones with a lot of great ones might make me think otherwise, but a whole litter of ill tempered puppies is not a good thing. I'd have to look at the mother, what were her rearing skills like, what were her litter mates like. I'd be rechecking my research before breeding them to different dogs and if it didn't all check out, I wouldn't breed that dog again.
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    My results are going to be different because I'm used to a companion breed so conformation showing is a must....

    Also, our litters are tiny- usually 1-3 pups so things really change....

    1) Probably not more than twice... Unless one or both litters were singletons which are very common in my breed. I know of breeders who have repeated a good breeding 3 times and gotten great dogs. Remember a three time breeding could very well be 3-5 pups.

    If I were to have this situation happen to me, after the second breeding, I'd turn to the offspring to try to improve upon that.

    2) No, in no way would I breed the son. Too risky...

    3) I would have no problem breeding a dog I knew to be a good example of the breed that could not show for whatever reason. Titles don't make the dog any better... I'd definitely be sure to get outside opinions from others in the breed.

    However, that said, I'd be really really wary of BUYING from someone who's dog isn't titled. How do I know this person is telling the truth? Especially if I'm looking for a working dog or even a conformation dog, I want to see that it CAN compete. People can tout show quality all they want or tout 'working lines' without it meaning a thing. How many champion bloodline dogs do you see that aren't near quality? Similarly how many people who just don't like showing claim to have working dogs and use that as an excuse to not do anything with their dogs? If I am buying a working dog and it's not titled, then I want to go see the parents actually work myself.

    All that said, Beau's sire was not titled when we bought him. Neither was his grandfather, but his grandfather was one major away then knocked out a tooth, so it was understandable. His sire is a different story... He was in the possession of a handler who went through a hard time and he got left out on a farm for a couple years. Came back covered in mud and was on his way to being conditioned for the show ring... I saw pictures of him and he was nice. The breeder was confident he would finish easily and he did. He even went on to Westminster in a year.

    So I'd make exceptions but there'd have to be reasons.

    5) Monorchid is a definite NO. It's linked to genetics and is totally avoidable. I don't want that in the line. Not only that but it can cause health problems (like tumors) if not taken care of. It must be removed. Obviously if you're showing then you can't show a dog with an undescended testicle but no matter what I was breeding for that's a fault that is not cosmetic and it's a fault I don't want.

    Bite to me is a totally different beast. Minor bite flaws are a fault in the ring, not a DQ. If the dog were outstanding in all other aspects and if the bite was just slightly off, then I might consider it. It'd really depend on the bite problem and how off it is. Slightly off, then maybe to a dog with a really good bite and a good history behind it. Anything that impairs the dog at ALL, then no. Bite is important... it's not all cosmetic either.

    As someone pointed out once you start aiming for less than the best, less than the best will become the best and quality will overall go down.

    As for other issues, in papillons, no way would I breed any dog with patellar problems. It affects something like 3% of the breed so there is NO reason to keep those dogs in the breeding population. PRA I would avoid but there is no genetic test for that. Sometimes it'd show up in the late years so you'd just have to do the best you can. You can't know if a breeding dog at the age of four will develop PRA at 10. If it were a problem that plagued a large portion of the breeding population, then you'd have to think and think hard. Culling half the gene pool could be a disaster, yet you want to minimize the occurrence of the problem. I'd never breed two dogs with the same problem. I don't know, that'd be a big decision. I'd have to have a **** good reason to breed a dog with something like that.

    6) No, not to each other. Probably not to another dog as well.
     
  11. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Case/Scenario 1

    I don't know if I would have done the repeat breeding originally, but I definitely wouldn't do it again if the second litter wasn't that great.

    Case/Scenario Two

    Nope. Proven health problems in the line - especially that close in the line shouldn't be bred. Just because the younger one is healthy doesn't mean she'll stay healthy, and doesn't mean she isn't carrying genes to produce the health problems seen in her sire.

    If they were health problems that could be reliably tested for with DNA testing, I might consider that.

    Case/Scenario Tres

    Depends entirely on why she wasn't titled. You mention too lazy to title. If I'm too lazy to title I have no business breeding anything. If she's not titled because she was doing other work - a dog in LE, a dog working stock on a ranch, etc. I would breed her. Titles aren't always necessary, but I would have other people who know the breed assess her.

    Case/Scenario Go

    Nope. I don't view DJD1 or monorchid to be minor flaws. Now if it was a minor flaw like a white spot that was bigger than a quarter, that wouldn't bother me.

    Case/Scenario VI

    I probably wouldn't breed either again.

    Yes, weird. :p
     
  12. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    Case/Scenario 1

    You have two dogs, titled, health tested and cleared. Both dogs ahave excellent temperaments, nice conformation and work ethic. You breed them once, and get excellent puppies. Exactly what you were hoping for with this cross of bloodlines. The puppies are extremely nice all around. Many go on to be titled before or soon after they are a year old. (Also, in this one, I'm not talking about conformation titles, I'm talking about working titles, lets assume the conformation is second to the health, temperament and working drive here.) (An, lets not debate working younger dogs. Lets assume also that they are earning titles that are not straining their joints and such)

    You breed this cross again a year and a half later. Same parents. This time the puppies are not as outgoing, not as drivey, not as sound conformation wise. Would you try again with this cross? If not, you wouldn't even try one more time? Why or why not?

    Depending on what what I was trying to do by doing the first repeate breeding. I MAY do the 1st repeate breeding, but I would NOT do the 2nd repeate


    Case/Scenario Two

    (The younger dog can be either a girl or boy. It doesn't matter)

    You have a young dog, and you have their father. The younger dog is say, a year and a half. The father is a nice successful dog, titled and campaigned well. Say he's eight. Not old, but not really young either. The younger dog is well on her way to being as successful as her father. Then the father starts having seizures or develops a cancer well known in the breed.

    Would you breed the younger dog? Or would you breed it if you researched the lines you were breeding to even more carefully than normal for seizures/cancer? Why? Why not?

    If the youngster was a bitch, no. If it was a male I would finish his titles and everything. Have him collected and then maybe use what I had stored AFTER he was 9 or 10.

    Case/Scenario Tres

    You have a nice conformationally sound (for working, say, the dog probably isn't going to finish or step foot in Westminster) dog. Excellent drive, temperament, and great health. Would you breed this dog even if you had never titled her? You know she can do the work, but you just haven't gotten around to titling her. You have a stud who would bring out everything that makes her great and round out whatever it is that makes her not so great. Whatever points that may be. Make it up yourself. Would you breed this dog? She can do it. That is not the question. You know if you were to trial her, she could and would win. You just, are, lazy. Would you breed her? Or would you wait until you titled her? Would it change if the dog was six? Or eight? And you absolutely wanted to carry her bloodlines in your program? What would you do? What would you consider poor breeding practices?

    No. Unless the dog was hurt and that was the reasoning for no titles, but sound enough to breed. If you cant be bothered to finish a dog (proformance or other wise) then you cant be bothered to have a litter

    Case/Scenario Go

    You have a nice dog, all around great dog. Does his job or his sport well, is highly regarded by everyone in your breed to be an excellent representation of the breed. The problem is, he has a problem. Lets say, he either has DJD1 issues or he is a monorchid, or his bite is not correct, scissor instead of level, something relatively minor, but that has a chance to be passed on to any pups. Remember, we are talking working dogs. This means working dogs who have pretty much split from the show ring for the most part. His bite doesn't matter as long as he doesn't have a wry mouth or something.
    Would you breed this dog? Yes? No? Why not?
    If you did decide to breed, would you just tell the new owners or potential owners of the pups about the problem, or would you go one step further and insure that all pups were spayed and neutered. If so, what would have been the point of breeding him? You've just made more dogs, and the line is still not going any further. Could you justify that?

    It would depend on the issue. Would I breed a VwD Affected dobe? Yes. You have to watch what you breed them to. And only 3% of Affected dobes ever have problems, and those problems are usually minor because out of the 3 types of VwD dobes have the least severity. Thyroid no, cardio no, hips/elbows no, and cerf no.

    Case/Scenario VI

    You produce a litter out of two nice dogs. All the puppies in this litter are extremely shy. All need intense socialization to be even slightly normal. One or two is extremely fearful and all have to be placed into experienced pet homes. None have developed fear aggression, but all are slightly wary of meeting new people and prefer to run away rather than greet. Would you breed these two dogs again? To each other? To another dog? Why or why not again..?

    I would take a long look at the sire/dam. They would not be bred to eachother. I may considering breeding to someone else who was a total outcross
     
  13. Paige

    Paige Let it be

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    I'd breed none because I am too much of an idiot to be able to breed properly. I know this. That's why I respect those of you who actually know what you are doing. Beyond "OMG CUTE" no other thoughts pass through my mind when it comes to breeding dogs.

    /bad me
     
  14. doberkim

    doberkim Naturally Natural

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    Jenn, you are saying you wouldn't breed a doberman that is hypothyroid? or a dog proven to have autoimmune thyroiditis?
     
  15. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    I doupt it. I am looking into it more. From my understanding it can come with a whole host of fertility problems.

    However I dont know to much about the condition (wich Im working on changing)

    I have to say if Jazz came back hypothyroid right now at 2, I would re test and if the same results came back then I may spay her after some serious thought, and detailed conversations with our vet and other breeders I know.

    Jazz may be my foundation. I dont really think I want to start my kennel and have my entire breeding program based on a thyroid problem.
     
  16. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    Also Kim, what are the chances its a genetic thing? Thats my concern. I have been told that it is a 50/50 thing if it will be passed down.
     

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