Bias and hypocricy of views

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by ufimych, Jul 24, 2009.

  1. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    There are striking bias and hypocrisy in views established in our society, which most of us comfortably ignore.
    1) Inbreeding versus out breeding. Many of us claim that our dogs are like family members and some treat them very seriously like family members. At the same time, we like to watch dog shows and show breeders use inbreeding (incest) to improve their strains for the show purposes. At the same time, we do not approve, for example, incest and close breeding among humans. We prefer out breed ourselves. Inbreeding is detrimental and contradicts basic laws of genetics and especially population genetics. Nevertheless, it remains a cornerstone in show breeding practices.
    2) Spay-neuter programs. With a few exceptions, veterinarians and pet loving public are brainwashed by animal rightist ideology and trumpet about benefits of spaying and neutering pets. Why nobody want to spay or neuter humans? Especially now, when human population growth is obviously out of control and threatens the very survival of humankind in not so remote future? Remember about global warming.
    I can summarize said above that majority of our beloved pets, so-called "family members", are spayed and neutered family members. More over, too many of them are genetically degenerated by incest breeding "family members". This is unwanted by animals and a savage and cruel surgery. Did you ever met an animal rightist, who spayed and neutered their some of his human family members? I agree that it helps overpopulation control. Nevertheless, it contradicts the very idea of loving dogs like family members. I have never had and never will have a neutered dog or a cat. If I do not want to breed them, I simply isolated them for a certain period, when they are ready. Natural, intact animals, are far more interesting to keep and interact with. If we are saerious about love to animals, why we want to take so much control over their way of life and happiness? Would some of us, being castrated, be perfectly happy? Did anyone do it by his own choice?
     
  2. puppydog

    puppydog Tru evil has no pantyline

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    Dogs do not have human morals. Therefore LINEbreeding is not an issue. If done responsibly it isolates desirable traits and cements them. My male is line bred. He is as healthy as a horse.

    Spay and neutering is a vastly debated topic on this forum, please search it for our opinions.

    In short, dogs are not humans. Mine are still part of my family, but with their own special needs addressed.
     
  3. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    for the most part you are preaching to the choir. I and others on this forum speak out against inbreeding and unnecessary s/n.
     
  4. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    PD and Dekka are right on the money.

    Linebreeding is not the same as INbreeding and it is a useful genetic tool, particularly in rare breeds or a breed (like the Doberman) that has become infested with genetically carried issues.

    But no, I wouldn't characterize my feelings for my dogs as the same as those toward my familiy. I love my dogs MUCH more :)
     
  5. dobesgalore

    dobesgalore New Member

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    I know this comment is not about dogs, because I agree with everything everone else has said. But you wouldn't neuter a tomcat? Have you ever smelled tomcat spray? You can't get get rid of it. And if it lives outside not neuterd the chances of survival of a long life is almost nil. And keep your car windows rolled up. Tom spray in the car.......burn the car. (not really, but you will want to)! All the ferel strays......
     
  6. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    i was spayed...

    was it my choice? actually yes, i was given a couple of options but a partial hysterectomy was the best option for my health...

    did it change me?
    we can never know for sure because i had it done at a very young age, but not to my knowledge, i was bi-polar before hand, still am...and my sex drive actually did the opposite of what theyd throught it would and skyrocketed...

    it likely saved my life and DID save me an awefull lot of pain, discomfort and anguish.

    now im not one for mandetory spay and neuter for a RESPONSIBLE person, someone who is willing to seperate their dogs during her heat cycle, make sure their intact male is always under control (and not picking up females around the neighborhood)
    unfortunatly i dont feel much of the population is actually READY for that kind of added responsibility as is evident by the many daily listings of "accidental litters" "mom got out and got pregnant" "i didnt know my male was old enough" ect (and is even worse with cats)
    plus the risk of scilent heats...

    however i am ALL for spay/neuter of fully MATURE dogs, let the animal physically mature first, if your going to be breeding breed responsibly ect and then spay/neuter later to prevent the cancers...
    most of the risks from a spay/neuter come from pediactric procedures.

    human women go through monepause when their body has had enough...
    Female dogs DONT...they continue to go through heat cycles their entire life, the eggs become less viable with each cycle past a certain point, why continue to have that girl suffer every 6-12 months, she shoudlnt be bred, shes too old...noone can tell me a heat is "comfortable" at the very least it must be frustrating...

    as for inbreeding.

    i have no problems with LINE breeding when done correctly, line breeding is slightly different from inbreeding in that the animals are NOT that closely related.

    In breeding is breeding using CLOSE relitives

    let me preface this with: personally i DONT agree with inbreeding (in any species) while line breeding in the animal kingdom im not too skeeved with (and unlike your statement of the animal doesnt want it...many wild animals will mate insestually, particularly those that tend to travel in family groups...)

    in breeding in humans is frowned upon not only due to religious mentality (back in the days when the bible first came out everyone was sleeping with everyone..theres a reason they had to add one of those "dont lie in your mothers bed" types disclaimers)
    but due to MEDICAL concerns, inbreeding in dogs and humans CEMENTS certain traits,, Exagerates genetic characteristics...

    even in humans however these genetic abnormalities dont occur untill usually 3-4 generations of direct inbreeding in...and humans are naturally flawed in many ways, unfortunatly the traits cemented by inbreeding in a humans case eventually lead to abnomalies, disfigurement, and bother mental and genetic breakdown...

    in dogs, too much in or line breeding will do the same, and like in humans it will cement very specific traits in a line...
    and like in humans too much too closely will be detrimental causeing issues...
    but as a general whole, once in a while to cement a trait is not only safe, but actually common in the natural world.
    (its particularly common in lions, hyena, certain species of primates and apes and even wolves and coyotes.)
     
  7. lakotasong

    lakotasong Sled Dog Guardian

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    Hello, [​IMG] I'm an animal rights activist. I am currently guardian to six dos and six cats, as well as two snakes, a ferret and a beta fish. All of my animals that can be altered, are altered. And they're all living longer, happier lives because of it. I research the appropriate time to spay/neuter each animal and have implemented this decision when I've had the choice (all of my animals are rescues, and some came to me already spayed/neutered). Please try not to make negative generalizations about those of us who are truly putting the welfare of our animals first. Thank you!
     
  8. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    oh *roll my eyes.... so only by s/n are you 'truely' putting your animals best intersest first...

    I am fine if people want to do it (dekka and snip are fixed) but i didn't do it for them... that propaganda is really getting old summit.
     
  9. lakotasong

    lakotasong Sled Dog Guardian

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    Truth hurts.
     
  10. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    why should the truth hurt? are you in pain?

    That dogs are spayed/neutered for people isnt' painful for me. It annoys me at times but its not painful. That is why Snip and Dekka are fixed..
     
  11. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    I would comment, but I'm trying give up getting involved in incipent train wrecks for the summer.

    :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

    To the OP: if you are interested on the views of people on this board on these topics, there are many VERY long, very, ah, sprited threads on the topic.
     
  12. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Ah, come on Lil . . . where's the fun in that? :D

    And every forum should have their very own pet ARista. Just be sure they're spayed or neutered.
     
  13. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Ares was neutered for my convenience. Morgan was spayed for her benefit. Her heat cycles were incredibly difficult for her and the choices were to continue to watch her suffer twice a year, hormone therapy for a problem we couldn't even fully diagnose or spay. Spay was the best of those options for her.

    Morgan also was inbred, and it's not something that's common or ideal. If she hadn't had a hormone imbalance though, she would've been an amazing dog. She was inbred on one of the best corgi lines there is.

    For the OP, I very much dislike comparing how we treat out animals to how we act as humans. My pets are not my equals.
     
  14. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    Thank all for responses. Most are good, thanks again. This is a good theme for the Colbert Report! Now, lawyers graduated from prestigious American colleges are busy with such nonsense as animal rights. How you dare spay and neuter animals? Do you do it on their behalf? Some AR are here, guardians, for a while. AR are going to take all you animals away from you.
     
  15. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    I don't know if the op was aimed at people who anthropomorphize their animals?

    I've never really had that issue. My animals are treated like animals... I second corgipower... they aren't my equals. To me, that means so long as the animals themselves aren't chronically unhappy, they're fine. I don't think it really matters long term if they're fixed or not. There seems to be arguements for both sides. As far as linebreeding, again, I don't seen anything wrong.

    Both my dog and my tomcat are unfixed.

    The cat "misted" a wall once. I say misted because I've seen/smelled a true spray and this was no where near as intense. That was only once. It's been interesting to see him mature- he's a year and a bit and he's built like a brick ****house. We call him "bull-pussy" because he's built like a bulldog. Super thick neck, jowls, the works. He'll be neutered soon, but honestly, I'm never fixing a male cat early ever again. Such a difference in physique. But do I think the cat has an opinion? No.
     
  16. husky hijinx

    husky hijinx New Member

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    Every breed of purebred dogs is inbred. My bitch is line bred, her sire's health testing was perfect as well as her mothers, if a breeder knows what they are doing and does not over use line breeding I don't see a problem.

    People can and do use birth control, we also have a way of preventing unwanted pregnancy without resorting to surgical procedures or chemical/hormonal injections and pills. Unfortunately we can't just toss our dogs a rubber and say go have some fun but stay safe. Humans also have self control. Animals don't. I don't see my husband howling, pacing, fighting with other men when I'm around them or skipping meals when I'm ovulating. :rolleyes: Sorry but human and dog emotional interest in reproduction is completely different. Dogs do not have an emotional attachment to sex the way we do, their only attachment to it is instinctive.

    I neutered my dog partly for my own convenience and partly so I didn't have to worry about him passing god knows what on to puppies. He did come from a puppy mill before he came to live with us. Maybe it was mean, but I hardly think leaving a dog intact and possibly able to produce puppies who may have crippling inheritable diseases is less mean, so yes my male who is not fit to bred is neutered. Since I do have an intact female who is still just a puppy, I also did not want to opps and wind up with a pregnant puppy.

    I also find this "Natural, intact animals, are far more interesting to keep and interact with." to be far from the truth. My altered dog is far less moody than my unaltered bitch. He is the same as before except he is less interested in her. It may be easy for others with breeds that don't work or do so singularly or in pairs or smaller groups but Siberians are working dogs that work very closely in numbers, do you know what would happen with a mixed team of all unaltered dogs and bitches if there is a bitch in season? Dogs could fight, get injured, tangled in the lines, so much stuff can go wrong. So for some people, it's not only for convenience but saftey reasons as well.
     
  17. suthrnladi

    suthrnladi suthrnladi

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    Ummmm, what Hijinx said...... By the way just to keep it fun...Should some humans be spayed or neutered? H--- yea! I won't tell you what I do for a living, but suffice it to say, I've seen the results of not doing so.
    As far as treating my animals like family members....well, I love my animals, and they are much more willing to forgive and forget than my human family, but they are pets none the less, and are usually treated that way. Are all my animals altered?? Except for Shane the 12 week old Boxer, yep. For my convince, and to save lots of fights. I had my bitch spayed, after she came in heat, and the dog next door, climbed the fence and literally tore the door off the shed we had her locked in, after he had ripped a four inch gash in my son's unaltered male dog's shoulder and left several puncture wounds in his neck and back. Will shane be altered? yep, soon as he's old enough. I have only seen good behavior changes in my altered animals. Cats tend to stay home more.
    I was altered at a young age for my health's sake, but since my hubby had already been neutered (to avoid more kids) it really wasn't a big deal, I don't see any change in myself or him. I encouraged my daughters to have themselves "fixed" as soon as they finished thier families, one has, one hasn't.
    I think I'm getting around to PErsonal choice here.
    :popcorn:
     
  18. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    Everything I wanted to say has basically been said.
    but im just going to add. im not the guardian of my dog, im her owner :)

    :) that is all
     
  19. lakotasong

    lakotasong Sled Dog Guardian

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    Just a note since a couple of you responded to my use of the term guardian:

    I'm proud to be a guardian.
     
  20. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    steve'll be neutered for his benefit since he's got an undescended testicle and those have a scary high tendency to turn cancerous, being as testicles aren't designed to be stored at that high temperature. if he weren't cryptorchid, i'd be seriously considering asking his breeder if i could keep him intact for the time being, since i've had zero problems with him being so thus far. *shrug*
     

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