Bandages on both forearms

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by beloved1, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. beloved1

    beloved1 New Member

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    She is 9 weeks old. The minute I start to pick her up out of her pen she bites my arms and draws alot of blood. Yelping, and making any noise only seems to encourage her. What else can I do??????????????


    Bleeding
     
  2. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Sorry ...I can't remember her background , when you got her , where you got her or her breed . That may help me .
     
  3. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Grammy, she's a standard schnauzer, she got her a week ago.

    The best advice I can give you at this point is to automatically and as quickly as possible put her back in the pen as soon as she even MOVES to bite you. Put her back in the pen and then ignore her for a few minutes until she calms down, then you can come back and try to pick her up again.
     
  4. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    OK ..... then I fault the breeder .....this pup was not handled properly the 1st 8 weeks . Pups nip in play , but don't bite . I consider this a serious fault that needs major help and a talk with the breeder . I even would consider a replacement if she acts vicious .
     
  5. beloved1

    beloved1 New Member

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    It's not vicious, it's just stubborn. She is one who will not back down, so training is going to be interesting. The pen idea is good. Thanks. I also put vinegar on my hands and arms. That discourages her while it lasted. She is a handful!!!!! This is going to be interesting! So the breeder should not have allowed her to bite? I know she was recently weaned, too.
     
  6. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Grammy's point is that puppies this young should not be biting hard enough out of frustration to draw blood. If she had been properly socialized at the breeder's, she should've learned a bit of bite inhibition, in which case she'd be nipping you but not hard enough to "draw alot of blood" as you say.

    It is a good suggestion to talk to the breeder and see what she thinks of the situation, and also a good idea to go ahead and have a trainer come and observe (or, you could even take a video of the situation and send us the link so that we can observe) and see if the biting looks like aggression or normal puppy play.
     
  7. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    BTW, what you're describing here is nothing more than a SMART dog.... she knows that if she continues doing what she's doing, eventually YOU will back down and give in to what she wants. Yes, this will make training difficult because YOU have to always be one step ahead of her, and you have to be absolutely consistent with your rules in order for her to learn that what you say goes. Have you started reading any training books? Or scheduled your puppy class??
     
  8. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    What kind of a pen are you keeping here in, an x- pen?
    Instead of picking the pup up, open the side and teach the pup to come to you and then up into your arms on a cue.
     
  9. beloved1

    beloved1 New Member

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    I think she is biting because she thinks she is being affectionate or trying to nurse, not sure which. As she runs to me every time she is worried about something, I do not think it is vicious, I think it is just puppy stuff, but she has very sharp teeth and I have old skin or something like that. On the right arm I have a pressure sore syndrome due to a brace I was wearing for a tendonitis problem, which I now can no loger wear, so hurting me is easy.

    She is getting used to my verbal cues on what she should not do, but does not recognize any word pertaining to "no" in any shape or form. From anyone, including the other animals. We need to work on that.

    Yes, I have downloaded some training info and I am reading it. But the info is standard stuff and does not pertain to the particular problems I need to correct. I have been working on the leash training. Right now she thinks it's a chew toy that follows her around that she can't escape from.

    I don't know what an x pen is. It is a metal pen that does not have a door on it right now, as I had to shrink it 2 lengths in order to fir the space. It is a standard metal playpen.
    She does come to me and is learning her name. We have made some progress. She recognizes the word "out" and recognizes her name better, and is learning to go up and down the steps to the outdoor patio to the yard, except at night it seems a little harder for her right now. Once in a while she still will stumble, altho her legs are getting stronger and more co-ordinated. The vet says I should not take her anywhere until she has completed all her shots, approx. 16 weeks old. So I don't know that I can take her to class yet.
    Today when we got back from the vet my ACD gave her a welcome check sniff, so we are making progress!!!
     
  10. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

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    There is an assumption here that the puppy is biting to protest the picking up. That was not at all my first assumption, maybe bc I have working dogs. I have seen many puppies that get excited and bite playfully as soon as you get near them. They are not trying to hurt you, they are just too excited and haven't learned the limits on biting. If the mother and breeder and litter mates didn't teach it, then it's your job. No biggie. (However, if you think she is biting to make you stop handling her, then this is a totally different problem and needs to be dealt with very differently)

    Another thing- all of the older clients I ever worked with had this problem to some extent. As you age, your skin gets thinner and more delicate so that normal puppy biting does damage that it would not do to younger skin. So, I'd need to know your age before I'd be shocked that the pup is bloodying your arms.

    You've already tried the screaming, which will often work on sensitive, compliant pups. It doesn't work well on tough breeds that have been bred to bite and ignore the screaming. Standard schnauzers are very tough dogs and have been bred for protection work. One alternative is ignoring the puppy, but you'll find this is very hard to do while they are hanging on your arm. You can try to prevent the problem- make sure your arms move nice and slowly and you never jerk them away when she tries to bite- that only makes you more fun to chase.

    But when she actually bites, she is rewarding herself and you need to have a way to make it not rewarding for her, or this problem will not go away- biting is just too much fun for a drivey dog. I have had a lot of success with very calm, non-confrontation corrections. If she actually bites you, make sure you do not pull that arm away- that just makes it more fun for her. Hold your arm totally still (you may need to wrap your arms for a while or wear a jacket around her so this doesn't hurt) and reach under her chin with your free hand- nice and easy so she doesn't see it coming. Use that hand to grasp some of the loose skin around her neck and pull her into the bite (not away, which will be your instinct).

    Pulling her into the bite is exactly the opposite of what is fun for a pup. She will feel uncomfortable and you will hold her here, tight and firm until you can see her mood change. At that point, she will try to get away from you (a total 180 degree change of mood). I usually hold them a couple seconds longer and then let them go. Make sure you do not move your arms around as you let them go- keep them right where they were. If she tries to bite again, let her and then use your free hand to correct again and hold her a little longer when she wants to go to make the experience that much more unpleasant.

    Each time she lets go and backs off, praise her very calmly, but don't try to pet her (any arm movement will excite her and make her want to bite). If she approaches you sweetly, then you can pet her, but make sure you keep all your movements very slow and easy and only pet her from underneath until this problem is resolved. Petting along the top or sides of the head tends to incite the biting, as does rough or fast petting, so make sure you move in slow motion until you have no more problems with this.
     
  11. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Glad to hear you're making progress!

    Keep in mind that it is FAR FAR more important to teach your puppy what TO do, instead of what NOT to do. So any form of the word "NO" should really not be relied on from you at this point in her life. If she starts to do something she's not supposed to do, call her to you/squeek a toy/do something to redirect her attention elsewhere, and then always reward when she is doing a good behavior - even if it's just that she's laying down and being calm and relaxed. (You don't have to give a treat as a reward, praise/petting/play is very rewarding at this point too.) This is very difficlt - you have to be very dilligent about keeping her very close to you at all times so you can watch/catch her, and you have to be very mindful of what good behaviors are that you can be rewarding. But it's much easier for her to understand what TO do, what will get her a reward, and it's a much better way to build your relationship with her - she learns that you're a fun person and good things come from you.

    Many vets recommend this, but vets also are not good about thinking about puppies' socialization - the socialization period for puppies ends when the puppy is around 12-16 weeks old. The socialization period is very important because this is the short time of their lives when it is very easy to teach them what kinds of things in life are "safe" - like other people, other dogs, new places, etc. Far more dogs have died (been euthanized) because of lack of socialization, than dogs have died from diseases they contracted before their vaccinations have been completed.
     
  12. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    ^^^^^ agree about the basic socializing beginning very early at the breeders .
     
  13. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    ^^^^ agreed, after second set of vacc's, I start taking pups everywhere, including dog shows and agility trials. To classes and everywhere in between. I do not allow them to drink for community water bowls (not my adults either) and I have never had a sick pup or dog for that matter.
    I have hauled entire litters to my agility classes or trials.
     
  14. beloved1

    beloved1 New Member

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    Okay, so I need to rethink about the classes? I agree that socialization is important. She growled at every single animal at the vets. Egads. They gave me a pistol! I also need help in my management of her, so class would be a really good thing.

    Thanks for all the advice, esp. the pulling in to the bite. The reason I have NOT done that (I have done that with all my other dogs) is my skin. My right arm is very sensitive and looks like a giant blood blister. I will have yo make sure I am very well covered, as I have already started to do, until the bite season is re-directed.

    In regards to learning what TO do as opposed to NOT, how do I handle that when I take her out and she turns in to the devil chasing dog that leaps over the planters in to the veggie garden...on PURPOSE? I will have my son erect a fence, but . Never mind. I will just make sure I always bring a ball with me to distract her.



    Thanks.
     
  15. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

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    I would take her out on a leash so you can stop her before she makes that mistake. A ball to keep her busy out there will help, too :)
     
  16. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    Instead of pulling the dog into your arm by his skin (I'm still unclear as to where you are supposed to pull him by, his scruff or skin under his neck?) How about seeing what he does if you push your arm into his mouth (not super fast, just a normal smooth movement unfueled by emotion) , it works with cats but they do have smaller mouths so you'd have to try it.

    Personally I think if he's biting out of play you should stand up and turn your back on him every time he bites you so he learn play ends when he hurts you and will learn to not bite.

    If he's biting to protest being picked up I would desensitize him to that (I would clicker train that) or perhaps change how you lift him, he may feel insecure, like he's gonna fall and needs more support underneath his belly and feet.
     
  17. beloved1

    beloved1 New Member

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    She is just puppy biting. She gets excited and does the puppy bite thing. I was looking for alternatives to the arm thing, as that is very difficult for me. When I was younger I could have done the arm thing with no damage, but not now.
     
  18. corgi_love

    corgi_love New Member

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    Instead of taking her out to a dog park or classes, I'd invite a dog over that you know of that has all of his/her shots. I wouldn't risk her getting ill or worse, even if this is an important stage in her. There are other, safer, alternatives.
     
  19. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Any decent training class is going to require proof of vaccinations before you come to the first class.
     
  20. beloved1

    beloved1 New Member

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    Yes, they do, and they have a puppy kindergarten class that also lists how old and what shots she should have before she will be allowed in the class. I have to call them tomorrow. Today was not a good day for anything.
     

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