Are CM's methods abusive - link

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by stardogs, Feb 26, 2011.

  1. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs, 1 cat
    Location:
    NC
    Home Page:
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  2. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    5,903
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 puppers & 40+ Betta Splendens Fish
    Location:
    Northern California
    Even if it's from 2009... it's still relevant. Because he is STILL in business and people STILL believe the abuse and intimidation that he practices is TRAINING! :( It's sad that 86% of voters feel he is not abusive. How is choking a dog until it passes out not abusive?
     
  3. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Midwest
    i admit to not watching his show very often or find it helpful when I have, but i never saw him even come close to choking out a dog till it passes out. i'd have to see that
     
  4. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    its out there on youtube. I tried to find it by my googlefu is weak tonight. I have linked it before so I know its out there.

    He takes an on edge dog, threatens it, it bites him so he chokes it and kicks it (not just kicking to get it off) and doesn't let up the choking till the dog is on its side. More than a few vets have came forward to say in their opinion that dog lost consciousness and that it is dangerous and counterproductive to do such things in the name of 'training'.
     
  5. LauraLeigh

    LauraLeigh New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,751
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Brighton Ontario
  6. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    Are CM's methods abusive?

    Yes they are. The way he treats dogs has nothing whatsoever to do with the way domestic dogs are. And what he does to them is shameful and pathetic and so are the people who follow him. They show a complete lack of common sense and understanding.
     
  7. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,761
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Not enough.
    Location:
    Wales
    Urgh he has come to the UK to do a series.

    Everyone's like... awwwww I love that man, and look at me like I have 3 heads when I say I do NOT like him.

    I'm not even sure how he got on TV.
     
  8. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    5,903
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 puppers & 40+ Betta Splendens Fish
    Location:
    Northern California
    He was Jada Pinkett & Will Smith's limo driver... for real. D: Sensational, fake "reality shows" are just the thing these days.
     
  9. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    12,546
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Boston
    He came to my school to do a talk and I got to meet him

    I think he is a very nice man, and daddy (the dog) is incredibly sweet.

    but I also don't agree with his training methods and wouldn't use them on my dogs.

    I don't think ALL his training methods are abusive..but I do think there are a few shows where he has gone too far.

    I think the biggest danger isn't even Cesar himself.
    its the people who watch the show and try to mimick him
     
  10. Brattina88

    Brattina88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2004
    Messages:
    12,953
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    OH
    Fran, I VERY much agree with you!! Especially on the last part :(
     
  11. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    Are his methods abusive? Yes. No doubt in my mind that hanging a dog until his tongue is blue and he loses bladder control, or forcefully pushing a dog on his side so that he thinks he is dying is abuse.
    There is no excuse for someone as exposed to the dog training world as he is to continue using these practices knowing full well that other methods work just as well if not better.

    However... I also have learned that there is no surer way to make people tune you out than to disparage their hero or worse, accuse him of abuse. Bear in mind that many people do the same "tst, tst" to their dogs and attempted alpha rolls, with what they see as "good" results. If you accuse Cesar, you are accusing them by default, and they will become defensive and stop listening.

    I think the best argument we have against the CM wannabes of the world is our own dogs. And when people ask me how I got my dogs to behave as well as they do, I talk up positive, dog-friendly training.
     
  12. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
  13. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    The main issue with that, Danefied, is that they then tell me oh thats great it worked for my dogs, but that their dog was 'too bad' or a 'special' case and that positive methods only work on dogs with out issues....

    I have heard this from many people, including dog people.
     
  14. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs, 1 cat
    Location:
    NC
    Home Page:
    My response when people ask me if I'm like CM because I train professionally is "Yea, but better. I use more modern methods." That sounds cocky, but it's true and often will spark a good discussion. ;)
     
  15. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    12,546
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Boston
    I usually go with
    "My dog WANTS to be next to me and work with me.. he thinks training is fun. You may be the alpha leader..but I have a dog who loves me and loves training. So instead of walking in the perfect heel because he's scared I'm gonna ring his neck.. he does it because being around me is fun"
     
  16. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    I know, I know, I hear it to. And seriously, I don't know what the answer is, because if you tell them PR works on X,Y,Z, they'll find a "yeah but". I think there are people out there who PREFER to manhandle their dogs for whatever reason. And for that I have no answer other than to hope we continue to evolve as human beings.

    I have a 140# great dane, gone feral, eating livestock, shot at at least twice, had to be caught in a live trap... He landed in the county shelter, destined to be PTS after his stray hold. MAGDRL helped us get him pulled and in the meantime he badly failed the temperament test.

    This is a dog who bit the shelter evaluator and my husband. This is a dog who had been fending for himself as a feral, who had been clearly abused before then.
    We rehabbed him using 100% PR. He was our first completely PR rehab and he is our biggest success.
    I knew intellectually that he was going to have to be safe around our kids, and that even though I'm a big girl, no way could I overpower a full grown great dane.

    Some things you just have to experience for yourself.
     
  17. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    I explain how what they are doing is 'working' ie suppression and how using his methods could backfire.
     
  18. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    My trainer uses the spider analogy :D

    Loosely paraphrased:

    "If you were afraid of spiders and I put one in your face, you'd likely try to run. Now if I prevented you from running, you might swat it away. Now if I smacked you upside the head every time you swatted at the spider, you might very well quit swatting the spider away.
    BUT
    What's going to happen when a spider shows up and I'm not around?
    More importantly, did you stop being afraid of spiders?"
     
  19. puppydog

    puppydog Tru evil has no pantyline

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2006
    Messages:
    7,500
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The man makes me want to vomit!

    Calm assertive state? PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  20. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    9,036
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Bad things might happen if I had that opportunity :rofl1:
     

Share This Page