Anyone have experience with OCD; Piper's x-rays included!

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by kady05, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    I don't think I've ever mentioned this here, but Piper has been having some pain in her left rear leg since November. So far we've just been treating with Rimadyl, but haven't seen much improvement. Today she went back to my vet for x-rays of her knee. We were thinking it was a cruciate tear or something along those lines, but after looking at the x-rays, neither vet thinks that's what it is.

    Based on the x-rays, my vet thinks it's OCD (pulled this up from a quick Google: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2084&aid=464). Reading over that, she does have those symptoms.. stiffness/soreness when getting up, limping after more activity, and not appearing to be that painful.

    So here are her x-rays:

    This one is where you can see the abnormality right below the patella..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We did her hips at the same time to make sure there wasn't something going on there. Surprisingly, they look pretty darn good.

    Since she's not *that* painful and 90% of the time she seems okay, I'm opting to go a more conservative route at this point. We have a great canine rehab place near me that does laser therapy, acupuncture, massage, swimming, pretty much anything you can think of. So I think I'm going to get her in there and let them tell me what they think I should do. A couple of my friends recommended Adequan so I'll ask about that as well. My horses got Adequan regularly so I'm not stranger to it.

    If I wanted to go the aggressive approach, I'd get her scheduled for surgery. But at this point no one thought that was the only option.. so I guess we'll see what happens.

    Anyone else have experience with this?
     
  2. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    No experience, but good luck!
     
  3. Dakotah

    Dakotah Kotah BEAR

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    No experience but I hope it doesn't get worse and she heals up nicely!
    Poor Piper ---vibes---
     
  4. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Thanks guys :) She's a little trooper.. of course, being a Bully breed, she really has no clue that she's "hurt" so I'm constantly reminding her to slow down. Poor dog is SO pent up right now because I haven't let her run for a long time.
     
  5. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    How old is she? Stifle's kind of a weird place for OCD IME, and usually the lesions I've seen have been right along the margin of the cartilage. You can see that the articular surface itself right above the lucency is pretty unbroken except for a tiny divot.

    I'm not convinced that's an OCD lesion but I can't really say 100% sure "no", either. There's quite a bit of joint effusion in the joint space, if I were looking at this x-ray with that history I might be thinking about a partial ACR, honestly.

    If I'm not sure, I ask the local radiologist or surgeon - although my preference is a radiologist as surgeons are usually looking for things they can surgerize. It's super easy to over-interpret x-rays, there are a lot of tendon attachments and other normal lucencies in bone that can really fool you if the angle is just perfect to see them, and the radiologist comes along and says "oh that's just blah blah blah totally normal structure" and you feel dumb. :p If that option is available to you it might be a good idea to have one review the rads.


    ETA: Nice hips, though. :)
     
  6. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Can you.. speak in normal talk for me LOL? I can understand some stuff but a few of the things you mentioned went over my head.

    She turned 3 in Nov., btw.

    Vet said it wasn't a definite diagnosis of OCD, but that's what she's leaning toward at this point. Will be interesting to see what the staff at the rehab place think once they see the x-rays.
     
  7. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Sorry! So, I'm assuming what your vet is concerned about is the lucent (dark) circle that the yellow arrow is pointing to. But then the actual margin of the bone above it (red arrows) is really intact, unbroken. When I've seen OCD, the surface of the bone itself is involved. What is throwing me a little bit is the tiny divot at the dark blue arrow.

    At the light blue arrows, there is some sort of fluffy, irregular, greyish/whitish material. In a 100% normal knee, that whole triangular space is pretty uniformly dark grey to black. When you see that lighter material it can mean that there is joint effusion - fluid or fat leaking or sticking out from the joint. That can be seen with ACRs (even partial) because the cruciate ligament tends to hold that material in, and when it's compromised it can leak or pooch out.

    Looking more carefully, there are a few irregular spots on the end of the patella and femur (green arrows) that could represent some inflammation where ligaments and part of the soft tissue of the joint capsule attach.

    It would be unusual IME for a 3 year old dog to start showing symptoms of OCD. Most of them are painful by a year, and significantly. And I've only ever seen one in the hock, and all the rest in shoulders. BUT, any body can do whatever it wants, especially when you have a stoic dog. I'd be really curious to hear what the rehab thinks if you wouldn't mind updating, I always like to be double checked when I have a chance. :)

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    I'd sent it off to a radiologist if possible. It seems kind of late for an OCD lesion, and as been said, that's a strange spot for one.
     
  9. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Thank you for that!

    She pointed out the areas with the green arrows to me, and did mention where you have the light blue arrows that it looked "irregular".

    When you say ACR, do you mean ACL? Just checking. They checked her for anything involving her ACL & cruciate today while she was sedated and both vets there didn't think those were what was causing this. HOWEVER, she did tell me that the only way to really rule that out would be an MRI or surgery, obviously.

    She is definitely stoic. Either that or she's really not in that much pain most of the time. It's worse when she first gets up, then she works out of it for the most part. When this first happened, we came home from the park (where she ran her butt off) and that night she was hopping around on 3 legs. By the next morning, she was fine, so I didn't think much of it. But then it kept happening every time we went to the park, so I knew something was up.. and here we are now.

    But even now if she gets a wild hair up her butt in the house she spins on a dime and you'd never know anything was wrong with her.. so it's.. complicated?
     
  10. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I'm sorry, ACR is "rupture" and I tend to use it a bit interchangeably w/ACL because usually if I'm talking about them, they're damaged. :p

    But yes, that effusion can be associated with damage to the ACL but also can occur with other things that cause inflammation in the knee or joint capsule. Partial tears can be nearly impossible to feel on a physical exam (even sedated) but a partial tear wouldn't necessarily be something to pursue surgery for anyway. I think the rehab is a great first step.
     
  11. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Sass, you and your explanations rock. Just sayin.

    One of my danes had slight OCD in his shoulder, diagnosed at 8 months. We went to a consult at the University with a specialist who was doing a study on the genetic links of OCD at the time. His wasn't bad and we went the conservative route as well. 5 weeks of crate rest later, he was good to go and didn't have any problems for the time I owned him (he was 4 when he was rehomed).
     
  12. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    Hmmm, so odd. This thread interests me because we've been dealing with my dads dog, Lily, something similar for a while. My dad is not really as "up" on vet care so she only ever had one x-ray of her hips, I think, once and hips were fine.

    She's a JRT mix, with short legs. And since I can remember, after bursts of exercise (like out in the yard running for more than 30 mins). She keeps SO super sore and stiff later that evening. Sometimes can barely walk. She ends up walking it off, or sleeping it off, but it always happens after some form of exercise.

    I've never heard of OCD and it sounds VERY similar to what Lily goes through.
     
  13. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    This is sort of what I was thinking too when I read the first post.


    What legs seem affected by this? I'd be more inclined to think back issues with a dwarfy JRT than OCD.
     
  14. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Got it ;)

    That's what I'm thinking too, I'm much more into the conservative approach vs. a surgery if we can help it!

    Ugh crate rest. I'm really hoping it doesn't come to that.. she pretty much sleeps all day but in the mornings she does get excited and will run around my house a bit. I guess I'll see what the rehab place says and go from there!

    Yup, that's how Piper is. If we have bad weather and they pretty much stay inside for a couple days (aka I'm a wuss and they only get to go outside to potty if it's gross out LOL), she seems better. I have still been taking her to the park we always go to, but I keep her on lead. She pretty much "trots" the entire time we're there, so the night of that I can tell she's sore. Even still, she works out of the soreness within a few strides most nights.

    Although I have been watching her more closely since this has been going on and when she stands she will sometimes shift her weight off her bad leg. So it's obviously bothering her somewhat.
     
  15. ~WelshStump~

    ~WelshStump~ New Member

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    Well, all I have to add is that if you really think or confirm it's OCD, contact Fleetwood's owner (Tazwell), she mentioned that there's a pretty good treatment for it.

    Our friend has a Beauceron from a breeder who seems to be producing it in her lines, they told me at a dog show they were hoping he would do okay in the ring that day because he came back in from playing that morning limping (he was less than a year old), but when it didn't go away they had him checked out and told to rest him. Because he was rested in time he never developed lesions and has pretty decent movement now, a little choppy if not moved fast enough but that's typical of the conformation from his lines.
     
  16. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    I thought this was going to be about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in dogs and I was like OH BOY DO I HAVE EXPERIENCE.

    But alas, I can't help. Sending Piper get well wishes, though!
     
  17. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Thanks for that, will do. I had never heard of it until today so I really have no clue if that's definitely what it is, and I don't think either of my vets do either. Kind of frustrating.

    LOL when my vet first said "OCD" I was like "I mean.. I am slightly OCD, and she's OCD about licking people, but I don't think that's the OCD you're referring to!" ;)
     
  18. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    I was thinking Obsessive Compulsive too, then was like xrays? What? :lol-sign:
     
  19. spiffy

    spiffy New Member

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    I'm thankful none of my crew had this condition. Sending healing vibes to Piper. Get well soon girl.

    Sassafras' post is very informative. Thanks. ;)
     
  20. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Thanks everyone! I'll definitely update once we get her in to the rehab place.
     

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