Amichien Bonding / The Dog Listener

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by wcladymacbeth, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. wcladymacbeth

    wcladymacbeth New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 pets. 1 dog, Maggie, and 1 cat, Sparky
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I recently got several books out of the library that you all have recommended to me. I really want Maggie to listen to me and Justin, and I really want her to be the happiest dog possible. The first thing I wanted to work on was communication, so I started with The Dog Listener. I'm only about halfway through it but I wanted to get some input before I try anything. For those who haven't read it, Jan Fennell (the author) suggests a technique called Amichien Bonding which involves establishing Leader of the Pack status with your dogs using methods instinct to them.

    Taking into account the fact that I'm not even all the way through the book, it sounds like the author is saying this should work for all dogs. But I just don't see how it would work for Maggie, especially when it comes to Justin. Maggie doesn't seem to view herself as "leader of the pack" if the pack is me, her and Justin. She does show a few signs that she might see herself as MY leader, because she is somewhat protective of me sometimes, and jumps all over me when I get home from work, leads me on walks, etc. But she doesn't do any of those things with Justin. I don't really know how she views us when it comes to belonging to a pack.

    I want Maggie to listen to what I say and view me AND Justin as the leaders of the pack, but I'm not really seeing how based on this book so far. I can see how I can use some of the methods - eating something before she gets her food (alpha always eats first), ignoring her when I get home from somewhere until she calms down and I call her to ME (sounds sooo hard... I like that she's so excited to see me when I get home!) But these things I can try to do. One of the steps though assumes that the dog goes berserk barking and jumping when someone comes to the door, and you're supposed to acknowledge it and then send it to a different room. Maggie doesn't go berserk though, she just hides! Does that mean I should skip that step? Does it mean she doesn't actually view herself as leader of the pack, because she relies on me to protect her from the scary scary guests?

    I would like any input you guys have that have achieved Amichien Bonding with your dogs. Do you have any experience doing this with timid dogs like Maggie? If so, did you do anything different?

    In the meantime, I will keep reading and see if there's anything else this book can offer me. I see that there's a chapter about dealing with Rescue Dogs so maybe there'll be good advice there.
     
  2. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    Hmm I have heard nothing good with this book. I personaly don't like any book the spouts the old outdated idea of leader of the pack/alpha crap. I don't think dogs are stupid, they know we are not dogs, and don't treat us like dogs. (otherwise all DA dogs would also be HA and vice versa)
     
  3. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    6,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Two dogs, three cats
    Location:
    Central Texas
    Did someone here suggest that book? Because I know we suggested a lot of actually GOOD training books that also have a lot of behaviorial tips (like working on her shyness).

    I agree with Dekka, as soon as an author/trainer says "alpha," I leave (with the one exception being Ian Dunbar, but I still listen to that skeptically). I think it's pretty clear that if your dog is scared of Justin, it will be counter-productive for Justin to try to establish himself as "alpha." Instead, you can do the NILIF philosophy, which I'm pretty sure we've suggested before.
     
  4. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    6,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Two dogs, three cats
    Location:
    Central Texas
    (P.S. - Dekka, that's a good point about the DA/HA thing, never thought of that!)
     
  5. wcladymacbeth

    wcladymacbeth New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 pets. 1 dog, Maggie, and 1 cat, Sparky
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    gah ok... someone did suggest it. I wrote it down. I don't know who or what thread but I wrote down all the books that were suggested.

    Ok I'm putting this book down now. :p I wondered why someone would suggest that for Maggie.

    What's DA/HA?
     
  6. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    6,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Two dogs, three cats
    Location:
    Central Texas
    Dog aggression/Human aggression

    (Took me a minute to figure that out too.)

    At least you didn't spend any money on the book.
     
  7. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    Dog aggressive/Human aggressive
     
  8. Kayla

    Kayla New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,421
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Northern Alberta
    So true Dekka, and I agree with everything said here. Their are alot of great methods out their to work with your dog, and equally their are some not so great ones. Last week I was off early and wasnt feeling well so was just channel surfing when low and behold the dog whisper came on. I've heard alot about his philosophies and methods and dont agree with most of them but curiosity got the best of me so I decided to watch.

    True, the end of his episodes the dogs were usually considerably better then they had been but Im still convinced their are simply better ways to deal with your dog then resorting to hitting, yelling, scruffing, and "alpha rolling". In one case he got an adult jindo which would attack his owners to "submit to him" by making it roll on his back. The whole time the dog was snarling, panting like a mad horse and was clearly beyond stressed. Eventually it did roll over but I always wonder if the dog is simply smart enough to realise its in its best intrest to just roll over in defense since all of its fighting hasnt worked, but how that gets you closer to some type of "bond" or "communication" with your dog is beyond me.

    P.s If you want to have better communication with your dog why not start incoperating a bit of training into your play sessions, as mentioned NILF is a phenominal method, bonding takes time and patience regardless especially with rescue dogs, and theres no time like the present to start.
     
  9. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,034
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    Scientific parsimony states that the simplest answers should be sought first. The fewest leaps of logic should be made. Domestic dogs' hierarchy has never been proven or established conclusively. It's all theory. So, basing a training system off of something that isn't proven is skipping or leaping ahead from a hypothesis directly to a conclusion. Learning theory has been proven. It works. It is the simplest answer.

    I read that book a long time ago...biggest waste of money. It wasn't a cheap book! Such a lot of nonsense. Dogs walk in front of their owner because humans walk at a snail's pace and dogs walk faster and they're excited to go have fun. They do this because they haven't been given a better reason not to. They haven't been TRAINED. It has nothing to do with dominance. If dogs were out to stage a coupe, I'd have dogs that walked all over me because I use no such methods. And my dogs are well behaved and trained.

    If you want some good books on training and behavior; Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson, The Power of Positive Training, by Pat Miller, The Other End of the Leash, by Patricia McConnell, Don't Shoot The Dog, Karen Pryor. There are lots of others too. I highly recommend Culture Clash as a foundation to go off of.
     
  10. Paige

    Paige Let it be

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Too true Doberluv. If that was the case no one's dogs would ever get any exercise. If walking out ahead meant your dog was trying to dominate you I'd have to walk for weeks before my boys would even be slightly less than a bundle of woohoo.
     
  11. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    And what of people like me who train my dogs to walk a head of me when I am walking a group! Does that mean I am training them to dominate me?! Hmm sneaky little things, they have me totally hoodwinked by all this good behaviour.
     
  12. Paige

    Paige Let it be

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That's those darn terriers for you. They always find a way to have their owners jumping through hoops.

    :p
     
  13. Labra

    Labra New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2007
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jan Fennell needs to get over her 19th century style training methods and theories. Don't waste your money on buying that garbage. Purchase one of the books already mentioned in this thread by authors who actually know what they are talking about.
     
  14. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,034
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    Yup...and how do these people who claim the dog is being dominant when he walks in front of you explain why, he then lags behind you after a tiring outing...on the way home? Do they mean that the dog is dominating you on the beginning of the walk and giving up his "hard won" status on the way home.....letting you dominate him on the way home when he is following? Such a lot of rubbish.

    Yet another example of the pack theory/alpha zeolets leaping over steps in logic. If the more simple answers don't solve anything, then yeah....go onto the next possibilty and study it. But some of these people are so pathetically flawed in their logic that they search for more complicated reasons like pack theory and hierarchy first and jump to conclusions before looking at the very simple answers that are right there in front of them....like dogs acting like dogs and wanting to go have fun and explore....and have 4 legs and are much faster than humans....and that they haven't been given a better reason to slow down and walk next to the human.

    Pack theory and the very specialized hierarchal behavior of a pack animal for training strategy, being attributed to a scavening, semi solitary and occassional packing animal is pathetically unparsimonious and flawed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2008
  15. wcladymacbeth

    wcladymacbeth New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 pets. 1 dog, Maggie, and 1 cat, Sparky
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Just wanted to reiterate that I never said I agreed with the book... I was seriously recommended that book by someone on this forum, I even double checked who it was that recommended it.

    Thank goodness I didn't buy it. Maybe I'll tuck a note in the library book before I take it back and recommend some of these other books. :)

    Now I'm trying to decide whether to start The Culture Clash or The Other End of the Leash. Those have definitely been recommended more than once.
     
  16. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    6,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Two dogs, three cats
    Location:
    Central Texas
    If it helps - While they're both certainly wonderful books, I think "The Other End of the Leash" is easier and more enjoyable to read. :)
     
  17. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,070
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Cats, Dog, Leopard Gecko, Gerbils, Fish, African C
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I much preferred the Culture Clash but I find most people I try to get to read it have trouble with it (keep in mind one of these people is 12 and the other is 15 and has no dog background knowledge, I think I'll give her "The Power of Positive Dog Training" when I'm done with it, I think it would be better for what she needs right now), but I think it's a more complete "everything" sorta book while The Other End of the Leash focuses on body language and to be honest I can't remember too much from it but I may have already known much of the information in it. If you were looking for a book on bonding with your dog check out "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" it gave me a whole new outlook on being my dog's partner. "For the Love of a Dog" was very good as well and that is about dog's emotions and understanding, it gives some proof to many of the emotions we have always thought dogs have. If I were you I'd just read them all (that's what I'm doing). If price is an issue ask for gift cards to book stores on holidays and birthdays or see if you can find them in the Library. Here's was my book list from before Christmas I've read all but #6, #3, "Control Unleashed" but I'm only a little ways into "The Power of Positive Dog Training". http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65346&highlight=book
     

Share This Page