Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by chinchow, Jan 11, 2007.
PS, Jurai - thank you for the link to Kakusui. He is truly stunning.
Haha, well now this thread has done it - you can't get me to shut up. Don't worry, it's mostly pictures now:
I'm going to show an example of the different regional styles my sister was speaking of. Here first is Toyonishiki Go Toyohashi Onada.
You can see the same deal in him as in Taro - he's not cute or pretty, he is something else entirely, and *that* is what makes him an amazing animal to look at, as well as correct.
This is Kotobuki no Tetsu Go Tohoso
For some reason, I can't get the picture to show up, but I urge you to take a look at him, just to compare.
You can see in the headpiece alone that his is a very different style than Toyo's - however, it's an equally viable and correct interpretation of the standard. Again, you note, that he has those qualities the other dogs do - he possesses a natural beauty without looking contrived. He is pleasing to the eye in his simplicity and balance.
Thank you for those pics! What I see as an untrained, unknowledgable dog person is:
They ARE cute to me. But I think the term "Natural Beauty" best describes them. However, you are right that the AA has more "cuteness" in the face, more bearlike. In America that is an endearing quality in dogs. In fact the JAs do not appear bearlike at all to me. The eyes in both are distinctly different as well, or maybe it's just the look. In the end, to the non-show, non-breeder person such as myself, they are both beautiful, but even I can see the differences. Thanks for this educational information. I had no idea that there were two different conformations of this beautiful dog.
Thank you Siyuri and tempura. Excellent posts. For me, the term "pretty" is not a negative one. I see Shiba from Japan and I see a different type. For an example look at Betsy Sako's dogs. She is to my knowledge the only breeder of Shiba in the USA to have lived in Japan, bred and shown there. Her dogs have the more refined head, the full coat and the wonderful almond eye. In the American Shibas I hardley ever see those things. I went to the last big show in my area (Del Valle Kennel Club) it's huge, typically over 4000 dogs. All of the Shiba there where really disspointing, to me anyway.
OH, and off topic the AA does come in red with unajiro, but you almost never see it.
The JA is simular to the Shiba in that they are both native Nihon Ken. The JA, sons of Odate from a very specific region and the Shiba, the most popular native breed kept as a pet. But they have no more in common with each other than they do other Nihon Ken such as (Shikoku, Kai, Kishu.) Temperment is where the two breeds differ the most. The JA is very owner submissive, easy going, quite and selfless. Shiba are anything but. In fact I have heard them described as the hardest of the Nihon Ken to live with. But those who own them would know better than me. The shame is that the JA fancy in the USA is so torn apart and plagued with crossbreeding. In my area I have at least four breeders of Shiba that I feel are probably really good people and would be fun to deal with. With the JA I am on an island. But IMHO the JA is the best breed on Earth so one has to take the good with the bad.
You are right, JA's are not bearlike at all. 100% spitz breed.
LOL I'll bear witness to that! All of my Akita friends think that my sister and I are psychotic, and don't understand why and how we could deal with this breed - the funny thing is, that personality is EXACTLY why I like them. It's honestly the trait that attracts me the most, even beyond the conformation. I like their fire, their spirit, and their ability to make a humble person out of any dog owner - I like that they are wicked clever and challenging. I like that they are a smaller dog that will never let you think they are. I love the three traits - kan-i, soboku, ryosei. This is *definitely* not the breed for everyone at all - it is a shame that so many people have the wrong impression of them and end up not doing their research, as typically, those people end up with a nightmare on their hands that they can't handle. I think there tends to be a conception in this country that smaller means "easier" - Shibas are one of the breeds that prove this isn't so.
Again, as far as NIPPO and American Shibas go - it is not so much a difference in "type" as it is in *quality.* The majority of American breeders are working *toward* the quality that can be found in Japan - but it is simply a long, slow road. It is typically not as easy to import the best of the best from Japan, as it takes a lot of money and certain connections, as well as an understanding of the Japanese culture. Really, no one here is interested in making a type of Shiba that differs at all from what is in Japan - our thinking is that would just lead us down the road that the Akita went, which is exactly what we *don't* want. We are very serious about learning from the country of origin and respecting the Shiba for what it is and what it is supposed to be. This is why, once more, importation is to be found in almost every very successful kennel (or at least, the kennels that I personally would like to have a dog from) - however, there are those that simply don't have the money or the connections to do this.
I am fond of each and every Nihon Ken - if it weren't completely crazy, I'd love to have one of each, though right now I'd settle with a Hokkaido - good God, those are some amazing animals. I'm aware that the only real relation between the Akita, Shikoku, Kai, Hokkaido, and Kishu is that they are the native Japanese breeds, but quite frankly, that is good enough for me. There isn't a native Japanese breed that I don't like.
I'm familiar with and fond of Betsy Sako's dogs - but I think my sister will get more into that, so I'll try not to cross into her territory. I'll leave the discussion of San Jo to her too, and my guess is she'll have something to say about Kumi as well. I am *extraordinarily* hard to please when it comes to Shibas (I'm pretty sure my twin is covering the whys and wherefores of that as well, lol). However, I am also extraordinarily lucky to live in an area where the quality of the breed is getting pretty high, and where the breeders are importing.
Thank you for that post Siyuri. I love all of the Japanese breeds ( Chin, Tosa, Japanese terriers and J Spitz too) and i would like you probably have one of each (except Shiba .) I especially dig the Shikoku, I really love those dogs. Truth is, the JA in the USA needs the help of all of those interested in Nihon Ken. Hell, we need the help of those interested in PUREBREED dogs. We still have crossbreeders running roughshot and we cannot stand on equal footing amongst our own breed. The situation really sucks. The JA is a really awesome breed, once you live with one it is hard to imagine life without one.
Well, I'm certainly interested in helping out at some point (it'll be a while before I can afford the time and room for one, especially because I'm planning on establishing an excellent Shiba program first, but I'd like to have an individual JA eventually, and I'd love for the breed to be officially split in the US - I'd really enjoy showing one). My first experience with a JA in person was nothing short of wonderful - the temperament was indeed miles away from my Shibas, but quite enjoyable.
It's something I've always kept in the periphery of my mind at the very least - when I was still in high school I managed to convince my teacher that writing on the subject of Japanese/American relations and the breed split issue was a viable topic - it turns out she liked the paper, so I guess she was convinced I had a point.
I remember about fifteen years ago I first found out about the Shiba. Low and behold a very well respected breeder Jaycee Holden lived in my area. I called her and scheduled a visit. I found them to be very beautiful and interesting litttle dogs, just not for me. She respected that and was very honest with me.
The Japanese Akita is for the most part a very easy to live with breed. they are pretty high energy and love to play, that can take some getting used to. They are very gentle around small children and my girl Mihoshi is most lady like. What I mean is when I give her a treat she doesn't just jump up or grab and snap at it. She will take it very gently, it actually makes me laugh. She is not a licker but if she does it is with the utmost discression. When she wakes up in the morning and is let out of the crate she gets very excited and she has to find a bone or something to put in her mouth then she says good morning with a "woo, woo, woooo!!!" In my experiance JA's talk a lot with a wooing sound, howles, and grunts. Very neat.