Ah Oh We have a problem, help!

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by msbsgblue, Aug 30, 2008.

  1. msbsgblue

    msbsgblue New Member

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    O.K. some of you say my tiny toy poodle on the introduction page.

    Well, Sassy actually housebroke in about 3 days after I ask the question about that. We just took her out and on about day 3 she just "gets it."

    PROBLEM 1:

    She won't speak to tell us, she will walk to the door and if you don't see that, she comes to you and sits down and looks at you. If you ask "Do you want me to pick you up?" and that is not what she needs she backs away from us. But, if she needs to potty outside she jumps up on our leg when ask. THAT IS GOOD! But, how do we get her to tell us? I mean if we should not be looking or sitting as our desks I don't know what she would do. Don't suggest a bell she would be ringing in constantly.

    PROBLEM 2:

    Now she is realizing that going outside is also fun. So as you can imagine the "need to go out" is coming too frequently. Sometimes she goes potty, sometimes even on leash she just wants to run and act silly in play.

    Obviously, with winter nearing, we don't want to be making false runs outside.

    IF SHE DOESN'T GO SHE IS PUT IN HER CRATE. Problem there is she likes her crate too, so to her that does not seem like punishment, even thought I tell her "You didn't go potty."

    How do I stop her from telling me she wants out when she really just wants to go play? Since she is so very tiny she eats at will and so you can't time her.

    I hope someone has some ideas, we have made about 10 un-necessary trips out already today.

    By the way I pretty much stick close to this post someone else posted if you want to know what I am doing. One of us is with her constantly unless she is sleeping.

    Here is the post: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/show...1&postcount=35
     
  2. bnwalker2

    bnwalker2 My house is a zoo

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    With my puppies, I have a specific spot in the yard that is ONLY for potty trips. I take them out, on leash, and if they want to run around and play I just stand there and ignore them. Since it's a short leash, they give up fairly quickly. When they go potty, I praise them tons and then take them to another area of the yard where they're allowed to play. They don't get play time during every walk, some walks they just have to potty and come back inside (where they play anyway).
     
  3. msbsgblue

    msbsgblue New Member

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    That is about what we do

    That is pretty much what we do, but she is telling us way way to often that she wants out.

    Except I don't give her another place in the yard to play, play time is inside only. She is way to tiny, 1 1/2 pounds at 14 weeks. We have peditors here in the country. A hawk, we have plenty or owl could swoop her up. Most of the hawks around here are not afraid of people. They could swoop with her on the leash and hurt her. I have watched them sit in the tree above me many times.

    I want her pottied and back inside.
     
  4. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    Her crate should never be used as punishment. They should love thier crates
     
  5. msbsgblue

    msbsgblue New Member

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    That is not exactly what I meant

    If you crate train and they don't potty they are to be put back in their crate. I have a friend who is a proffessional trainer back home that taught me how to train. She trained for seeing eye dogs and the handicapped.

    So I did not mean it to sound as thought that was punishment.

    We leave her out on the floor a great deal since she will not go in the house, but the constant telling us she wants out when she doesn't need to go is hard on 2 people who are both disabled and I want to figure out how to stop that before winter sets in.

    Please read all my posts above before giving me a reply.

    I do want to say that this puppy gets lots of lots of praise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2008
  6. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    How old is this pup? It is completely unreasonable to expect them to be housetrained quickly and at a young age.
    Also what kind of activities do you do with her inside? What kind of mind stimulating games?

    I would stop feeding her free choice, she should regular meals at set times.
    Then take her out. If at that time she doesn't 'go', then she goes back into her crate but not for punishment but to keep her supervised until you take her out again 15-20 mins later.

    Also keep a record book of when she eats and when she needs to go out.
    That alone will stop the need to keep going out too many times in a day.
     
  7. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    She is 14 weeks old (post #3).

    I agree that it's ok to put her back in her crate if she doesn't potty outside, but do not scold her or act at all like you're mad at her while you're putting her in the crate. She has no idea what "you didn't go potty" means, and if it comes across to her like you're mad, it would make the crate look like punishment. As adojrts said, the crate is just for supervision (you KNOW she's not going to potty in the crate, right?), and maybe for a time-out (she doesn't get to play unless she potties), that's all.

    I'd suggest first, feed her on a schedule. You can offer her food 4 or 5 times a day, if you want (at least three times a day, for this age), and if she doesn't eat within about 15 minutes, she's not hungry, so pick up the food bowl and don't feed her again until the next meal time. I'd suggest doing the same thing with the water bowl - offer her water at meals, and maybe a few more times during the day, and if she doesn't drink, pick up the water bowl. If you get eating and drinking on a schedule, it will be fairly easy to get pottying on a schedule too. You can keep a log of what time she eats and drinks, and what time she potties, so that you can start to see a pattern and learn when to expect her to have to go potty.

    Once she's on a schedule, and you have a good idea of when she has to potty, you should also have a good idea of when she is making "false alarms." If you know she doesn't need to go, and she goes to the door and comes back and looks at you like she does, don't ask her if she needs to go potty. You can pick her up and put her on your lap, or play a game with her, or whatever, to give her something to take her mind off going outside. When you know she needs to go, though, and you want to go ahead and take her out, ask her then if she needs to go outside, and take her out. That way, the only time she has the opportunity to tell you "Yes! I need to go out!" is when she actually DOES need to go out, and probably eventually she'll get the hang of it.
     
  8. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I never crate trained , but am wondering if she has enough play time indoors with you ?
     
  9. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

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    If she's 14 weeks old and reliable inside, just thank your lucky stars. :p The time you spend taking her outdoors could be spent in cleaning up puddles. When cold weather sets in it's likely she won't ask to be out as much anyway.

    My dog was also a "starer." As time goes by it will get easier for you to tell what different stares mean.
     
  10. msbsgblue

    msbsgblue New Member

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    O.K. here you go, my reply

    First of all at 1 1/2 pounds a tiny toy poodle will eat one or two bites of dry food at a time, they are nibblers, I have had more then one in my lifetime. I guess you would really consider her a tea cup poodle. You have to let them free feed since you obviously cannot force feed them. She gets premium canned food too early morning about 6:30 when she gets up along with dry. She gets this again about 6:30 at night. But tiny dogs like this like to nibble as they get a bit hungry during the day.

    Now I am far from stupid about dogs since for years when I was younger I raised the tiny Yorkshire Terriers for the show ring. Most dogs this tiny are nibblers with their food.

    NO, SHE IS NEVER SCOLDED. Basically she is almost whispered to in a very soft voice as I did poodles before her which in turn got a lot out of my dogs as far as them wanting to please me.

    No, she has never pottied in her crate. In fact, she is the first pup I have ever had that sleeps 8-10 hours through the night at 11 weeks when we got her and didn't need to go out 2-3 times. She sleeps all night, has since we got her.

    PLAY, oh yes she gets plenty on one to one time with either me or hubby. We spend a lot of time in the floor with her playing ball, yes she already fetches, and other things that she enjoys. She has lots of toys and chew things.

    It would be impossible to write down each time she chooses to take a bite.

    She is reliable at 14 weeks as far as telling us, no accidents, the problem is that still she "stories to us" so that she can go outside to play. So, we are making way too many unnecessary trips outside.

    We tried the short leash suggestion but there are lots of things here in the country to distract, butterflies, cottonwood flying in the air, sounds.

    She just wants to go out to play about 1/2 the time. The other half she really needs to potty.

    I don't know how to distinquish one from the other, the signals she gives are the same.
     
  11. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    I have a chihuahua. I know that tiny dogs don't eat much at a time. But I also know that you can easily get them on a meal schedule. I'm not asking you to feed her once a day, that would not be healthy. Heck, you could feed her ten times a day if you want! Put some food in a bowl, put the bowl down, and give her 15 minutes or so. If after the 15 minutes, she doesn't seem interested in the food anymore, pick the bowl up and offer her food again an hour or two later. This is how you can keep track of when she eats, and this is how you can get her on a schedule so that you KNOW when she needs to go out and when she only wants to go play.

    Are you taking her outside on a 4-6 foot leash? And are you taking her to the same spot every time, so that she learns that when you go to that spot, she's supposed to go potty?
     
  12. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Agreed. ^^^

    And my questions about how much play time and training both mentally and physically were also never answered. It sounds like this pup needs both........

    And another thing, even at 14 wks and trained inside, the rules of house training should still be followed to ensure that the training is solid. Those rules are pup goes out after eating, drinking, sleeping and play.
    Another solution, x-pen with a cover outside for potty training, therefore pup is then off leash (considering that it is harder to get pups to 'go' on leash) and is safe from critters.
     
  13. msbsgblue

    msbsgblue New Member

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    You surely did not read my reply on page one

    I did answer those questions at the post on page one. We are both home all the time. Go read my reply there. She gets tons on attention and stimulation. We are two middle aged disabled adults who spend most all of our time with her.

     
  14. Cheza

    Cheza New Member

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    Well before everyone starts getting all defensive...

    If you can keep track of how often she does go out, on average if you don't want to feed her on a schedule (say she goes to the bathroom roughly once every half hour) then after she goes, start timing and do not take her out again until her half hour is up.
     
  15. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Actually you didn't really, because I asked how much training she is getting.......
    Thats mentally stimulation.

    I am going to bow out of this thread now, finding the OP just a little more than rude and intolerable.

    Btw, your welcome for any suggestions that you use that I offered, although I am thinking that sinse your are the expert here that you wont use them because you want an easy quick fix for something that the rest of us know isn't.
     
  16. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I agree putting on a schedule is a good idea. AND it is healthier for them. The canine digestive tract is not meant to 'graze'.

    You said she gets lots of stimulation, but what kind? What kind of activities are you doing with her to satisfy a pups need for mental growth (I do understand your fear of letting her out off leash). Can you take her somewhere where it is safe for her to explore? The sights and sounds and smells of new places (like on walks and such) are very very stimulating to pups. You are going to have to work really hard to match that within the home.

    One thing you can do for stimulation is to 'shape' behaviours. Then you could even shape one you want for a signal to go out and potty. (tho any method could lead to 'excessive bell ringing' if she is craving mental stimulation.
     
  17. msbsgblue

    msbsgblue New Member

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    In the event you come back to read my reply

    I have reread every word I wrote and I do not feel that I was either rude or defensive. Now I may be a little defensive over your second paragraph below in your quote. I think that was uncalled for.

    I have no idea what size dogs you have worked with and yet you are asking me the questions that you did above. I replied as best I could.

    If you have never worked with any animal quite this small then you would not realize that at 14 weeks what she has done by figuring out to only potty outside is a great accomplishment. You mentioned that it was my expectation. I have had another toy poodle and use to raise Yorkies for the show ring, and believe me when I say that was not my expectation. I really expected it to take months for her to come this far.

    No I am not an expert nor did I claim to be, but I have worked extensively with tiny dogs for years. I have 3 veterinarians that would recommend me and the pup I use to raise anywhere. I have been told by my vets that I know as much as they do. I have read books on breeding, genetics, and veterinary medicine for years. I just don't know what to do about her telling me when she really does not need to potty.

    I know about stimulation and socializing and a lot more. That is not related to my question.

    At 1 1/2 pounds and about 5 inches high to the top of her back she is still very very much like a tiny baby. She is far advanced for her age. Most of these tiny gals and guys take months and months worth of work.

    I don't know how we got to feeding schedules when my original question was how do I get her to tell me when she really needs to go out and not just want to go out to play.

    As far as does she really get it and is she reliable, well I can tell you that if I am reading her wrong at times, and she does not need to go, she will run backwards and bark if I get the leash. She knows whether she needs to go or not, but it is just sometimes she tells me she does and acts like she does need to go when she really doesn't and only wants out to play.

     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
  18. Baxter'smybaby

    Baxter'smybaby swimming upstream

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    You will find lots of experienced people on this forum....so please don't discount information offered to you, or questions made. I think your posts, perhaps not intended to be rude... come off a bit curt--just something to be aware of. :)
    Now I am by no means an expert, or nearly as experienced as adojrts, or dekka...but I will give you my .02 cents.

    Perhaps if you train her to ring a bell before taking her out to potty, it will help. I know Dekka alluded to this...but I would place the bell ONLY for times that you are taking her out for the purpose of eliminating. Ring the bell, take her to her potty spot, and then back in.

    To add, I would use a different behavior for play time outside, --maybe have her tug on a rag tied to the door---take her to her play spot. Do not mix the two areas.

    Additionally, she is a very young dog. It will take time....regardless of how bright she is. She is a baby--give her time, play time, and I agree a schedule is worthwhile even if she is a toy breed--you can still schedule her feedings and outings. Good luck. :)
     
  19. Gena

    Gena New Member

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    The reasoning behind the feeding schedules questions was to help *you* know better when it is a true potty need and when it is a play request. Also, the "how much training" questions relate to that as well. If she's asking to go out and play a billion times a day, she's likely bored. She's figured out a way to get your attention and get "un-bored." Pretty darn inventive for a 14 week old pup if you think about it.

    I'd bet, if you REALLY paid attention to her actions when she's asking to go out you'd see some differences in the two. My dogs will ask to go out if birds or cats are in the yard. On the surface it seems just like a "hey, gotta pee here" asking. It was getting frustrating to me to leash them up and go out when all they wanted was to shoo the birds away. I started watching and really paying attention. There is more intensity in the "stare," more urgency in the "prance," more wiggles and general "hurry up lady or get some paper towels already!" I think one of the worst things we, as owners, do is to not notice when the dog is telling us something. I'm coming to this realization rather late in the game myself, but now that I'm listening to the dogs things are going much better.
     
  20. smkie

    smkie pointer/labrador/terrier Staff Member

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    Most dogs need to urinate when they first wake up, after drinking a lot of water or a play about in the house, a few minutes after they eat. By going outside and watching when your dog does go out and deficate or urniate and comparing it to your feeding schedule and when the dog is waking up should give you a good idea.
     

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