Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Panzerotti, Feb 6, 2012.
Lol i've seen lots of aussies with that same philosophy actually.
That... is true! I don't know why I didn't think of that. I don't use toys a lot with the clicker for training just because it's odd to me and the dogs get kind of confused at first, but I think I will try that. It'll be nice to see if it's the clicker/slow process or reward that's shutting Recon down. He pays too much attention to getting things right when he's working like that and shuts down if he doesn't get it right away.
I got the video to work, though! Just some clips of our 15 or so minutes of practice. I'm pretty proud of him- this is the best he's ever done and the first time we had worked on weaves since before his injury, so the first time having them closed up more, and some of the last clips were even more closed with awesome entrances, or so I think? Maybe they aren't that fantastic, but he made me proud regardless! I'm hoping to get out there regularly this week and work on it daily.
There was a lot of gossip (including from people in the know) that USDAA was going positionless as well, but it was not changed this year. People were taking it as such a given that I think everyone was shocked.
I'm not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. I get the hatred of the table but...train your dog, you know? I think I'd rather see it removed entirely than just be positionless. Plus it helps those of us with off breeds when all those herding dogs won't lie down on the table
To be honest I don't use the clicker with the toy. I believe Trkman does, she clicks then throws the toy... I just throw the toy. I know a lot of people do not recommend using a clicker for weaves because it creates a dog who is inclined to turn toward you when they hear the click. For a while with Pay I clicked and fed him in front of him with his head facing forward, then switched to throwing a toy. Forward drive is really the important part!
Yeah, I'm not sure how I really feel about it either. I know for some people it's a serious challenge. One of the people I trained with years ago had a dog who would not sit OR down on the table, and she never would have gotten a single standard Q if they hadn't gone positionless. I think somebody else here had a dog who would do the table in training but never in trials. But I still dunno how I feel about it.
Thanks for the tip! I will try that!
I'm a big fan of the positionless table, not because I can't train the table, but because my dogs can't physically do it. Sit is usually okay, but it's really really hard for a dog of this build to get elbows and chest down to a surface when in a state of excitement, with tense muscles. Generally, they can only get one elbow to touch at a time. Leading to the random factor of, will the judge count it or not? Most do, but when they don't, it's really frustrating.
And unfair, because the hairier breeds don't have to worry about that problem. Even if they aren't completely flat to the table, the hair will cover the gap, and the judge doesn't notice.
Here's a run where my dog spends 14-15 seconds on the table, most of which she was lying down for. It was really, really frustrating to both of us. It's not super sharp video quality, but I think you can see the dog was lying down. I was putting a lot of pressure on her to make her flatter, so the judge would count it.
This. I love clickers but I never clicker the weaves. It creates a hesitant dog, and Beanie was right on target, forward drive is the most critical part of weaves. Reward placement is the other most important part.
Robin's just learning weaves as well. I either throw a toy, or put a target out in front of the weaves for him to drive towards. He does a good job about not looking at me, but he got significantly faster when the reward just appeared ahead (vs from my hand).
Whoa, I got frustrated watching that. It looked like she was down...and trying really hard to be down as far as she could. These are things I never even thought about (I ran agility with a Lab back in the day).
Happy the table is basically out.
Lets see, Petie would down from a flat out run/chase at a max distance from me of about 500 ft. He would down in water, in any weather conditions. He would do a table anywhere any place, with any distractions, EXCEPT in a trial. His default behaviour? Yep it is a down. The table had been trained so it was the best damned place on the earth and he was thrilled to do it.........EXCEPT in a trial. I did fun matches, I ran him FEO, didn't frigg'n matter.
I paid a lot of very good trainers for advice or tips to help me solve my problem, didn't work. Not one frigg'n method. The only thing I didn't do was give him a correction or use a shock collar on him. Think I should have? So he could be trained to do the table in a trial? Plus it wouldn't have worked unless I could have run my dog with an e collar on him :rofl1:
So I stopped running him in standards, gave up any chance of earning our ATChC. Stopped beating a dead horse because it was effecting our other classes and damaging our relationship. When I stopped, he excelled, those masters standard courses, no problem. No table. Placements at Regionals and Nationals, no table. Petie lacks two frigg'n Q's in Advanced, then it would have been easy peasy to get those Master Standards. He has everything in spades for that ATChC. Yeah it sucks.
So when someone says just train your dog..........that is offensive. I can assure anyone that I worked harder, paid more money and shed more tears over that F****king table to have anyone say, 'just train the dog'.
I guess I just don't really understand what makes it different from other obstacles. I know I'm approaching the topic as someone who has never had table issues with a dog (want to talk about taking out the teeter, you come find me ), so I'm genuinely looking for answers.
For example, similar to your post Ado, I have a friend who ran a dog who Could Not hit contacts in the ring. This is one of the trainers I know who I am most impressed with. Incredibly hard worker, fantastic timing, cheerfully drove 3 hours each way to weekly lessons so she could work with a top trainer, etc. The dog with the issues could and did regularly win steeplechase classes despite being called on 2 contacts, because the rest of her run was so outstanding she could still be 10 seconds faster. Her other dog made it to the Steeplechase finals at Cynosport. She went to every trainer (other than the one who said "leave your dog with me for the weekend and I will fix her contacts" but wouldn't say how and wouldn't let her be there), seminars, ran in NADAC where you can train in the ring, ran Gamblers where she could 'school' the contacts...nothing fixed them. It was practically heartbreaking to watch.
So where is the difference (or is there not)? Should contacts not be called because some dogs simply can not perform them in a trial setting? Perhaps change it to a "dog performed the obstacle safely" call, but not require hitting the yellow? I think that is probably the other obstacle I'd consider similar to some of the table issues I've heard/seen. Some people, no matter how hard they work, simply can't get them in a trial.
I apologize for phrasing my thoughts the way I did; I have a lot of respect for many of the people in this thread and the work they've done with their dogs. I absolutely get the "sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, it isn't going to happen" thing; what I don't understand is why the table is different from other obstacles in regards to that argument. Enlighten me!
I didn't ask nor expect the table to be removed in my case. I changed my game plan. In some cases I expect folks just stop trialing. I liked the idea of it being judges choice as to whether they wanted a sit, down or stand on the table. At least it gave someone with a table issue a chance of at least earning a q when a down wasn't required. But that isn't what they went with, I don't know the reason why and I am interested as to what the reasons are.
I saw one comment from a judge that was happy to see the change in the table rule. Because of so many thin skinned and/or deep chested dogs struggle and are clearly uncomfortable to do the table.
I don't think it compares to contacts. Contact zones are first and foremost there for safety. Again if you have a dog that can't or wont perform contact equipment, you either change you plan, keep training or quit. And it would be an unrealistic expectation that something as vital as the CE be removed.
Have they removed jumps in agility because of all the problems with the jumps and dogs getting hurt? No but the rules as to what is an acceptable jump is being changed in a lot of Associations or will be.
Nobody minded when rule changes included breakaway tires but now there is concern that some dogs are just blasting through tires and the performance is yet again for some dangerous. Will there be continued changes with the tire to make it safer for the dogs? Over the pond the tire is a fixed tire but the jump height of the tire is lower for safety reasons, will that happen here as well?
I also have a teeter problem with Who after she got catapulted off of one when another dog stepped on the end during an open practice. It never occurred to me, to even suggest that the teeter be modified or removed because of her problem with it. That is my problem to either fix, keep trying to fix it, limit her trialing because of it or quit.
Fair enough. There is a difference between 'happy it is gone' and 'expected it gone' I guess. Time is the reason I have heard given for removing it/making it positionless. Everyone gets to go home earlier when you don't spend extra time waiting for dogs to lie down.
Consistency too. I have a couple friends who are judges who said it was always tougher on the short-coated dogs, especially ones build such that, say, when they sat their butt didn't actually touch the table though their hocks were fully down, so the judge had to look twice before starting the count vs. a long-coated dog who could get away with being almost-down or almost sitting because there was just no way to tell under all the floof.
Yeah, some judges were better than others at it but four-paws-on is about as clear a criteria as possible and they feel it's easier to be consistent between dogs.
I never had a problem with Remmy downing on the table until one trial when I had him clipped right down. He was down the way he always had but the judge said he was not right down. He could not have been any farther down and because I kept trying to make him, he eventually jumped off the table. At least I do not have to worry about that now he is in Masters so no table.
I will probably be glad of the change when I start with Kris, the Doberman and I know my sister's Rat Terrier never looks like she is right down when she is so it will help her. I have worked so hard on Lucy to have her go down I will probably still have her down on the Table as right now she automatically goes down as soon as she hits the table.
Our trials are mostly outdoors so in the heat or the rain it effects some dogs whether or not they will lie down.
Pay and Auggie got into the August trial after all.
Better teach that puppy some contacts!!
I have my new agility class tonight! I've been told that I am probably ahead of the rest but they will add some stuff to my sequences to make it more difficult. I'm just glad I got in a class!
Also I want another trial already. Lol.
We leave for nationals on Thursday.
I'm so excited and nervous at the same time. Today is my last day of work so I have 2 days off to over think absolutely everything lol!
Diesel and I start weaving classes tomorrow night!
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