Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Panzerotti, Feb 6, 2012.
I love Gusto and Meg. <3
I loved the videos! It really makes me want to trial with Diesel. Next tuesday is his last class and that saddens me .
Love the Meg and Gusto videos. They're both so positively happy to work with you.
I have a question about rear crosses. More specifically, about options for how to cue them.
I was taught to set the line the obstacle before the cue, decel and then pressure the dog's line for the turn. Evidently I'm not very good at this (or Cohen is bad at reading it, but it's probably me), so it's not uncommon for Cohen to turn the wrong way when I try to cut behind her on a tight turn.
Last night my instructor suggested I cue the rear cross verbally. More specifically, to give Cohen my "turn" cue (verbally and physically), which means for her to turn away from me. So I'd be approaching a jump, cue the turn, then cut in behind and pick Cohen up after she jumps. I hadn't heard this suggested before. Is this common practice? Is it advisable? What do you guys think?
My first trainer taught mostly the Derrett handling system, and my currently trainer is more Mecklenburg, so I've been struggling to marry the two systems. Sometimes I get conflicting information and need to figure out how best to proceed with my own dog.
This is what I was taught to do, we call it a switch, so you cross in behind the dog and pick them up on the opposite side that they went into the obstacle.
And what do you do to cue it?
I'm learning the derrett system and my previous used the mecklenburg system (which whether by translation or system was not working for us). We don't use any verbal now and it should all be by physical cues and the value placed on the front. I'm far from an expert on this but we were started with stationary sits where I would line up on both sides, step back and click and reward for the head turn (a whoops and reposition if the feet followed, conditioning we're looking for the focus). Then I would begin stepping across the tail of the dog while behind them in a sit, when the head turns to follow (no nose up like in flashy heeling but a wrapped head to the left or right) I would click and reward, thus conditioning the dog to be aware of my front and whichever side of the dog I am on.
eer... next week we'll put it in motion. LOL
Previously we taught left and right turns but honestly while running I am neither fast nor reliable enough to use them and while they're a fancy and fun trick it only added anticipation and spinning into obstacles. This is a lot more steady and broken down for Backup.
Sloan seems to do fine with either method, it would just be a matter of consistency for her.
If cued correctly, both of my dogs will read a rear cross just off how I line things up. If I handle like crap, forget where I am going, or am late (see the line between the teeter and chute in Meg's run. I had planned a front cross after the first jump, but had a flashback to Gusto's course where we went to the a frame and was too late for a front), both have a cue that means "turn away from me". I use "flip"; their name means "turn in to me". I tend to use the verbal flip more than needed, but it is handy to have. I also use it when I need them to turn into a tunnel off a contact.
Yes! I had Pirate at a Barb Davis seminar last December (always do a seminar with Barb if you get a chance, she's a great instructor), and she had me teach a verbal to Pirate. I tend to use mostly front crosses, but I do need to use more rear crosses with Pirate, and for whatever reason, he just didn't seem to read them well (my other dogs have not needed a verbal for this). He picked up the verbal fast, and it's made a huge difference.
I use "switch" as the verbal cue, and I'm trying to remember how she had us train it. I think that we walked along with the dog roughly in heel position, gave the cue, and lured the head away from us with a treat (or tossed a toy back? Hmm... Wish I'd made note of this.) Then we'd walk up parallel to a jump, give the cue as we approached, and reward as the dog turned back to the approach side of the jump, so they were flipping away from us. It only took a few tries, and then we could use it on course.
I do have video of Pirate using his new skill:
The first time through, I was forgetting to use the cue, so you can see where we were at; not turning, or wide turns. Vs the nice, tight turns I got with the addition of the verbal cue. I used it on a course for the first time at our next trial, and it worked great!
I am almost positive this is how SG talks about teaching a rear cross on her One Jump DVD. SG and GD are pretty similar so it's probably close to how GD teaches it if not the same. I can't remember how he says to teach it on his DVD, it's been a while since I watched it.
Verbals help some dogs and not others. I got pretty quiet with Auggie because my babbling wasn't helping. I'm fairly quiet with Payton too. I don't think being quiet or not is necessarily superior, it just depends on the dog. I would put the turn cue on it with Cohen and see if it helps. Just make sure you're giving the cue before she takes off - late cues on turns and stuff tend to result in dropped bars as the dog struggles to respond in mid-air!
We got introduced to the tunnel for the first time in agility last night. All I can say is my dog is now the class clown. :rofl1: He has seen a tunnel (albeit a very small tunnel and briefly) at puppy class when he was like, 10 weeks old.
So yesterday, he decided that going through it was not the most efficient way to do it. The better way to do it was to run along the top and jump off the other end. :yikes: The class about died laughing I think. lol I found out he does better when we run up to it and don't stop moving, then he goes through it no problem. But if I hesitate even a little he's on the top of it running along like a demon trying not to fall.
My dog is embarrassing! LOL All in all, it was a really fun class and he's doing good, I'm catching on little by little. ^_^
Even experienced dogs can wind up on top of the tunnel.
I teach rears with a target and one jump with no bars up. I don't use a verbal personally but agree that some dogs do respond better to one. The dog has to have the ability to be sent in front of us. Rears are very difficult to teach a dog that paces us or doesn't like to be sent forward and leave us.
One problem that I often see, is people beside their dogs, then slamming on the breaks to cross behind their dog, which of course often makes a dog then spin.
Target (target disk/lid or toy) is beyond the jump and slightly to the left, start with the dog on your left. Send the dog forward to the target and cross behind them, reward. Slowly move the target further to one side, then add a second jump or more jumps if you need to get your dog driving forward. Never reward a spin and I quickly get to the point where I wont reward a serious head check either. If the dog spins or head checks it means they don't understand and need more training, go back to the point that they didn't and slowly progress again.
A rear cross is nothing more than the handler moving diagonally behind the dog while moving forward, which is the cue to turn
The Punk and I are registered for our first foundations seminar with Jess Martin in 2 weeks
Hi, my name is Jess, and I'm a Front Cross Phobic.
Since my timing is inevitably late in just about every situation, I try to avoid front crosses whenever possible. Rears are very much my friend. But when I'm late cuing a decel and there's a big, juicy tunnel entrance looming up ahead things can get a bit... messy. I'm a big fan of running as quietly as possible (Cohen on the other hand...) but I'm definitely tempted to put a verbal to this behaviour to see where it gets us.
Summer is a dog that runs on top of tunnels lol. My dogs both like climbing things but hate tunnels. Lol
Ado outlined my rear cross woes. I like front crosses if possible. I'm hoping its mostly experience because rear crosses still tend to confuse my dogs. We learned rear crosses with the target like she outlined though
Then you may want to check out the new handling stuff on teaching the dogs to not do the obvious side of an obstacle i.e OTHER tunnel entrance instead of the one right in their faces lol. Basically takes the onus off the handler and needing perfect timing and puts it onto the dog
Also amazing to see how fast the dogs pick it up, no head checks, no hesitation and flying into the correct entrance.
A friend/instructor did this with one of her dogs. Worked really well until I ran her dog and she neglected to tell me that her dog will shoot off to the farther end of the tunnel unless explicitly told otherwise. I'm told the expression on my face was priceless when she suddenly turned on a dime for no apparent reason and took the wrong end of the tunnel, leaving me bewildered lol. We do mostly motion-based handling and I know that every fiber of my being was directed toward the near end of that tunnel. Coulda knocked me over with a feather
As we left the ring after our otherwise-clean run, her handler said to me, "So I suddenly remembered I forgot to tell you....."
Good times, haha.
There's always a learning curve. With my first agility dog (Elmo), I did almost all rear crosses. TBH, I didn't really know how to do a front. And he preferred I stay out of his way. With my next agility dog, Tully, she really wanted me to stay in front of her, so I learned how to do fronts, and eventually added blind crosses (her favorite). At this point, I've evolved a style of my own that involves being ahead most of the time and using fronts, but I can and do use rears when needed. But, I've been running agility for 12-13 years.
Pi moves out well, so I'll probably be using more fronts with him as he gains experience. It's actually pretty easy to use them with a fast dog, if you can send them to equipment and take short cuts yourself (so the dog needs obstacle focus). But I do want to have rear crosses in my toolbox anyway, so he does need to be able to do them. The verbal cleared it up for him, so I'll continue to use that, though my previous 3 agility dogs didn't need one.
As you work, you will find out what moves work best for you and your dogs (unless you wind up following a handling system that tells you what you can do), and you'll get more comfortable with stuff that is harder for you at the start.