Agility training

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Panzerotti, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Webby at last! I just adore him. He sounds like Meg; she also is never going to win in a flat out speed round, but once all the faster dogs start pulling bars and getting off-course on the tight, trappy courses, she moves up into the top placements pretty quickly. There's a lot to be said for that type of dog!

    Zuma looks like such a blast!

    I was just about glowing the whole ride home from practice last night. Our club held a camp last weekend, and our USDAA trial is going to be held in the same field in 2 weeks. Since the equipment was all there, we just left it in place rather than moving it back to our usual practice field. Which meant 1) New place to train and 2) Got to train in the ring we will be using at the trial.

    Gusto was so, so good. So much of it is a mental thing for me. It's really hard for me to go to the line in a class, or even run thrus, and not rush to get my dog on the line and run. I went in knowing he needed to be engaged, and we tugged/set up/released to the tug a few times before I even took his leash off. Did a few single jumps, did a few tunnels. Just worked on making sure he was 100% engaged with me. By the second time out, I was able to run the course in about 3 or 4 pieces with big tugging/re-engaging in the middle. Zero sniffing. Zero disconnecting. Big wake up call for me in how I need to approach this issue!

    I've been heartbroken because we lost our spot in our usual training class due to Gusto's injury, but I'm trying to see it as a new opportunity. As fun as it was, I'm not sure it was what we need right now anyway. I think I'm going to do a class with Agility University, since the trainer I really like is doing one that seems perfect for us next month. Obstacles aren't the issue for us right now. Handling is a part of it (he still doesn't pick up great on front crosses), but focus and drive is really what I want to spend the summer working on.
     
  2. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    This is from last fall, Salo stuff....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhhaEmEoXUs

    Go 30 sec into this one, this is very typical...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Ykqgm-PeA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPEeGaJS0Ps

    This is from our recent seminar, not a good angle you can see a crash in the first sequence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHpnbu6GiEk

    This article http://www.awesomepaws.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/EarlyTakeoffSyndrome.pdf really describes her. I thought she was doing so well this winter because we were working mostly on collection, cik/cak, backsides, all of the complicated skills. But then when we got back outside, she reverted to crazy jumping when it's a straight on approach in extension.

    It makes me sad because she really does try hard, gives me her all, and wants to be right. I don't know if it's fair to keep asking her to do something that she honestly can't do.
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    [YOUTUBE]_Uxtf3w-9aQ[/YOUTUBE]

    And just like that, we're beginning to click...
     
  4. Sekah

    Sekah The Monster.

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    Congrats! You and he will be a force to be reckoned with when you guys get going.

    Also, I absolutely adore Zuma. She's such a speed demon. Just lovely. Never stop posting videos.
     
  5. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I don't have much experience with ETS, but are you sure there isn't something else going on? There are a couple times in the video where it looks like she's driving really hard through a turn and her front legs sort of give out causing her to stumble. If she's trying to compensate for an impairment in her front end assembly, it would really mess with her jumping. I saw it I think in all of the videos other than the susan salo one. Have you had her checked out by a sports vet?

    Of course I could be totally way off base here.
     
  6. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Nice weavers Backup!!!
     
  7. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    So I guess I should update.

    In the past month I've only done one class with Mia. Summer's injury benched her for 3 weeks then with tornadoes and hail all week for two weeks my classes were cancelled. My drop in class with Mia went ok but we are more advanced than that class by a lot so....

    My first trainer ended up restarting classes for my old class and they needed my dogs to make a full class so we're back in our old class. LOL

    There is a trial in July and I am debating on entering but leaning towards no at this point. I'm not sure.
     
  8. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    I'm not well versed enough in "diagnosing" ETS to really say one way or another. Most of the dogs I've seen with it tend to question themselves and slow down and show the characteristic head bob/stutter step on the approach. Pan seems to just say the heck with it and fling herself, tucking her legs way up to make it. But that may be because most of the dogs I've seen with it are Shelties, and Pan is approaching the problem in Mal fashion...

    She does seem to do a better job of adding a stride for the turning jumps (though sometimes she's not seeing/reacting to the turning cues in time and tries to turn hard as she lands, which I think is what's happening when she's wiping out at Sara pointed out). I agree with you that it's mostly when she's in extension and you're not "forcing" her to add a stride with collection/turn cues.

    Have you by chance had her eyes or body checked over for any physical issues?

    Sorry that you're dealing with this :( She is so enthusiastic -- I hope for both your sakes that there is an answer that will allow you to keep playing.
     
  9. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Hurray Backup!

    Laurelin I hope you are able to get back into good classes soon, and that Summer is good as new.

    I dropped into a C-ATCH/Excellent-level class this week and took Kim for something different...lol. After a year of no agility. Yeahhhhh. She was happy to be there, we can say that much for certain ;). Her weaves are apparently still on vacation, and her fluency in reading turning vs. extension cues left quite a bit to be desired lol. But she had fun and most of the people in the class aren't terribly advanced so we weren't an outlier or anything lol.

    That was the first class I'd been to since last September or so as well so...yeah lol.

    We have an actual class we are enrolled in starting up soon, but it's only a one-month class and I am going to miss the first week since it turns out I will be on the road :( Bummer. Looking forward to the other three classes though. Mira's entered in the first class, and Kim in the second. Buuut after Kim's performance early this week, I'm either going to have to get some work in before that class, or else take Webster instead lol.

    Kim was having a blast though and I just had to laugh at her silliness. She still has, and always will have, First Dog Prerogative.
     
  10. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    She can jump pretty nicely in collection now, even at 26", which is what leads me to believe it's ETS. She can't handle straight on approaches at speed at all. I had a private lesson with Justine the night before the seminar, and we ran a sequence with a tunnel then a long distance to two jumps in a straight line, and she was just launching at the jump from like 20' away.

    The wiping out is also a Mal thing....they just aren't graceful like BCs and their bodies often just can't handle the speed they want to travel at. :) My friend also runs a Mal, and he wipes out all over the place, although he can jump beautifully (he is in Silvia's new foundations DVD because he can turn so tight).

    I live in a crap northern city with no sports vets so I have never had checked out, but she doesn't show any physical issues anywhere else.

    I agree that she is just approaching the problem in Mal fashion. She can't judge the proper take off point so she just launches herself, hoping to make it. I think that the softer dogs, like Shelties and some BCs, will slow down and stutter, but the crazier ones just try to power through it. Here's a staffy that doesn't show the stuttering either....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyqOEaAFxes.

    Right now I'm about to move to a city with pretty much no agility, so I'm going to give us both a break for a bit. Luckily, Pan loves doing anything, so I'm going to start tracking training again, then revisit her jumping in a while.
     
  11. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I guess I don't buy the "it's a mal thing" excuse for the wiping out around turns, maybe for the crashing jumps though (I agree that she could be handling ETS in mal fashion). I know plenty of mals (some with extremely high drive and tight turns) that run agility and have never seen them wipe out just in turns. If it were me, I would have her evaluated.
     
  12. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    Not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like in your area most training and competing is done inside? Like, in this vid, Pan's jumping looks way better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GiCZZijdWE. It's outside on fast straight approaches that she gets in trouble. Also, to be fair, in the one seminar video that I posted, we were in the morning group and the grass was dewy and slippery, lots of dogs were falling on turns.

    I agree though, that she does look "off", compared to most dogs, most of the time when jumping, and she can't turn as tight as some dogs. I think that a lot of it is her structure, she's long, short, and upright.
     
  13. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I can't go back and look at the videos, but there was a good variety of surfaces in them if I remember correctly.

    Yes, most training is done indoors here, but we do have plenty of trials outdoors in the summer and in dirt arenas year round.

    Just pointing out my opinion from what I saw in the videos and my experiences with agility. Take it or leave it.
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I do agree it can mostly be an unfair excuse to limit solutions with saying it's a mal thing. That beings said the lacking self preservation, exuding brute force, slamming, twisting, JUST DO IT, and lack of impulse has been specifically bred into many working malinois lines(FWIW there is a lot of value in a dog as such). It's a very common issue, they don't think as clearly and that is ideal in many cases but not always in sports. Then again they shouldn't be stumbling all over, generally speaking.

    In theory, while thoughtfulness is rarely their strong suit and the JUST DO IT sometimes does bite you in the ass it shouldn't be impossible to correct with a good trainer and a good handler having taken an exceeding amount of time. I totally agree this might actually not be just a mal thing and far more something like ETS (or more) which I still don't understand after a few years of hearing about it over and over by my bc/sheltie friends.

    I haven't watched the videos and I plan to once my phone is charged (can't on work comp, too slow) so maybe I will change my tune, really, but if it's noticably an issue of stumbling on a regular basis I wonder if they is in fact something more from the descriptions.
     
  15. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    And this is the part I'm talking about. I'm very well aware that working mals have no self-preservation and they do tend to stumble/run into things/whatever a lot. However, I have never seen a dog stumble as frequently as I saw in those videos. Now it could be just the selection since it's a small sample and it could be different in real life, but that's the sample I saw. If it was all on the same surface, again, I wouldn't be pointing it out.

    ETA: I'm not talking about the running into the jumps. The stumbling around the turns. As Pan said, it could just be her structure.
     
  16. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Out of curiosity will you post a photo of her stacked? Or close to?

    I remember going to a Daisy Peel seminar with Sloan when we first started and she told me Sloan would always struggle with tight turns due to her structure, she said she wasn't built for this. I was totally taken aback, like, what? This is the little dog that jumps 6' from stand still, dances on her hind legs for fun and makes anything athletic look like a walk in the park. Then again when I see her weave and I see B weave, my out of standard long loin GSD looking malinois, it's a world of difference. However, that being said she's never accidentally crashed into a jump unless I lined her up wrong. She's fool proof while Backup slams into and literally breaks jumps to the point I felt guilty running him for both his body and the equipment until recently.

    Q, square like Sloan but much taller than Pan, has trouble jumping as well. It was a serious issue with his CDX and something being faced in IPO. They call him a "lazy jumper". For a breed that clears palisades like they're park benches these dogs are sure a headache with 24 inches.
     
  17. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    I am really not seeing a lot of stumbling. I see a few skids in deep dirt and slippery grass when she's trying to turn tight and accelerate, but no more frequently than my friend's Mal and other fast BCs that were there as well.

    Yep. Me and Pan have had lessons with quite a few international level competitors, and all have told me that if I want to compete at that level, to get a BC. I guess I'm just kind of disappointed because Pan has the mental ability to do it, but it's hard enough for any Mal to compete with the BCs, and pretty much impossible for one with jumping issues.

    I don't have any stacked pics.....this one is the closest I can find. It's hard to tell how little and short she is because I am also little and short, lol. But when I brought her to train with her breeder last summer the whole group was laughing at her, wondering when I cut off her legs, lol.

    [​IMG][/URL]
     
  18. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Adrianne, the reason you probably don't understand ETS is because nobody - including LM who came up with it - does. Something is causing these jumping problems but she doesn't know what. She believes it's an eye related problem but doesn't know for sure. You can't examine dog's eyes or sight the way you do with people so as of yet medicine can't provide any proof to her theory. Some people have gone the corrective lens route and it appears to help some and does nothing for others (there is a person in the circle around here with a sheltie that is the latter.) She thinks it's genetic and hereditary so collected a bunch of DNA swabs from border collie people to try and find something that might provide a clue, I have not heard any kind of results on that yet though.

    Too many unknowns, how could anybody really understand it? LM admitted in a follow up article that she is just presenting her findings, her theories, her "personal, unscientific evaluation of the data she has available" to herself. Clearly she believes in her theory, and is determined to chase down something scientific here (hence the DNA swabs,) but as of yet it is just a presenting of findings.

    One thing I DO know - or at least the last I heard - the only person who can "diagnose" a dog with true ETS is LM, and she has had to come out and cautioned people against labeling any dog with any jumping problems as "an ETS dog." The VERY FIRST sentence in one of her follow-up articles is "There is not ONE single reason why dogs take off early when jumping."


    Personally when I watch Pan I don't see a dog with signs that people typically file away under ETS. Now, admittedly, my view of jumping all comes from Salo and Clothier, so maybe I'm not looking at it the same way LM folks do. But it's just not what I see.



    This attitude disgusts me in ways I just can't describe.
     
  19. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Cause BCs never have jumping problems? lol
     
  20. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Honestly, I just don't get that attitude at all. I'm probably just not competitive enough or maybe I just don't care enough. I'd much rather have fun with MY dogs and dogs that suit me outside of agility too than to go out and get the 'best agility breed' just because they're the 'best'. It makes me feel like those people have lost what it's all about. But what do I know, I don't have 'real agility dogs'.

    I do happen to like BCs outside of agility lots but still.... agility is a freaking game. There should be a lot more going into picking your dog.
     

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