Agility training

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Panzerotti, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Be really careful with that - I had a friend get whistled out of the ring when she went to rev her dog up by grabbing at his scruff. The judge considered it a correction, despite her clearly playful attitude (and the dog's lack of worry about it).

    Both of my dogs have start lines, and will continue to do so. I need the lead out to get where I want to be more often than not. Sometimes my "lead-out" is about a foot, but I can go across the ring with Meg (maybe with Gusto, I haven't pushed it in a trial). I really wish I had the money to do the "Stays" class at Agility U that starts on Monday, but I'm doing Recallers right now with Gusto, so that's eaten up my agility funds for right now. I'll definitely take it when it comes up again; I'd like more "explosion" from Gusto's releases.
     
  2. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I know a lot of people have running starts, but I just randomly had a question about it. I use lateral sends a lot on the start line (a lot more often than I thought I would!!), is it just not an option with a running start? I suppose not since you are starting right with the dog, but is there a way to accomplish the same idea?
     
  3. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    This is the one other option if the problem is motivation rather than lack of a stay:

    [YOUTUBE]LmoaI_SLEK8[/YOUTUBE]

    Someone suggested that to me at the event, and it did work to give me a little lead-out advantage without slowing her up too much. (I was neurotic about messing up the opening, because we did in the first round) I don't know if I'd do it now, with improvements in my handling, I don't need that advantage so much anymore. But it's a bit academic, because I'm not running a less-motivated dog now.
     
  4. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Mia's actually really fast out of a stay however the demotivation happens when I have to correct her too many times a training session and put her back in the stay. She recovers fine once we get going but I can see her stressing so I don't push it too much. I do want to keep good criteria so I've been cracking down on the creeper dog deal she likes to do.
     
  5. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    A fair number of people with the really fast dog with no start line end up doing a "sling" start to help them get downcourse. It's usually a bandaid but it's fairly effective if you know your dog's commitment distance well. Basically you start off to the side with your dog and send then toward the first jump while you move downstream.

    [General] On some courses if you have a truly fast dog and no startline stay you have to do some sort of sling unless you can fully steer your dog by vocals. Webby has a stay but I usually start with him or laterally...he's fast enough but he's no rocket and it works for him. With Mira I need a lead out on certain kinds of courses...there's just no way otherwise. Fortunately she's been doing steadiness drills since puppyhood and start lines are no biggie with her. Just depends on your dog, the type of course you run, and your handling style.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  6. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    Yep, I do that with Tess a lot, and one of the starts in the video I posted shows that, though it's not one of the more dramatically angled versions, since I had to maneuver around another jump.
     
  7. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I will definitely release in motion like that some of the time now. I'm trying to decide how I really feel about it! Of the two people I love doing seminars with, one suggests it a ton, the other doesn't like it. As of right now, Gusto will do either, and I swap back and forth a bit between them. I'd like to build up the drive out of the stay so I don't need it, but I do like that as an option.
     
  8. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    It would be a terrible idea with a dog who doesn't have a reliable stay, since it would probably make the stay worse. And I suspect doing it all the time would weaken the stay too. Tully never had a problem with staying, though, she was just so much happier to run together; and she ran faster when we did, because she was happier. So this sort of worked as a midway position, that she only had to hold it for a few seconds, and then we were running together. Plus, not turning to face her, which turned out to put pressure on her. Using blind crosses turned out to be super motivational for her too, I wasn't putting pressure on her by looking at her.

    She was sensitive.
     
  9. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I was going to say that Meg's tombstone will say that, but then I remembered that I've made it clear to her that she is living forever!

    Blind crosses still scare the pants off of me. I could probably get away with them with Meg, especially at this point, but since Gusto likes to duck behind me on course already, I'm too scared to ever reward that. I'll be that person in 20 years, long after everyone has given up the old "don't take your eyes off your dog!" rule, still only doing front and rear crosses!

    I can not wait for our snow to go away. I've realized recently that, while Gusto's weave entries are generally fantastic - that it is dependent on me being behind him going into them. If I'm even with the first pole or past it, he skips the first entry. I need to get my poles outside for some proofing!
     
  10. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Yeah I was on my phone before so couldn't watch your vid at the time :)


    Another example of a dog with no start line who is very successfully started with varying degrees of sling instead:

    [YOUTUBE]Q8uazkYhZIU&[/YOUTUBE]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8uazkYhZIU&list=UUJ6lY233W8xvIMbBlsQf0tQ&index=9
     
  11. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I've been teaching a restrain specifically and separately to in the Flyball class. What I did with dogs who aren't real naturals at it is have them on lead, set down some food, move them back from it saying "reeeeady?? Reeaddy?..." as they pull at all into the leash towards it. Then release them with "Get it" or whatever as they are pulling against the pressure. At first they are right out of reach of the food (or toy if that's what they like) then we move them further and further back. As they get better we move onto holding collars, harnesses and chest retrains. We've gotten some dogs really into it this way, dogs who were weird about being touched and had no natural desire to pull towards something.

    You don't really need a start line stay. It's not a requirement to run in agility. Sometimes I think people get so hung up on having it that it creates a bunch of other issues for them, like what you're seeing with the stress. Certainly hasn't hurt this dog to have never been able to hold a start line stay ;)

    [YOUTUBE]PKg7bOkudk4[/YOUTUBE]

    Yep! Someone who told me when Savvy was a puppy that I was going to have a "hell of a time trialing him" and implied I should have done more research and talked to more people (who didn't own the breed or had one they weren't pleased with I suppose) is struggling to get her young dog to do more than one or two obstacles at trials while Savvy is having a great time playing at trials like a good young boy should. I heard it all when I got him but I'm always thinking how happy I am I decided not to listen to the naysayers. PyrSheps aren't for everyone or even most people but that doesn't mean they aren't for anyone. I often think how poorly suited more people at my training club would be to having one. Not that they are bad or haven't done well with their dogs, they just wouldn't compliment the breed. But I do know some people who would do well with them and really enjoy them.

    TBH it wasn't really that complicated for me. I found I just enjoyed them and didn't find another breed I felt such a draw to. If I was going to not have a breed because of the potential for weirdness, I'd probably not have a house full of Belgians. I meet a lot of PyrSheps over the years. Some of my favorites happened to be some of Savvy's relatives. I picked a puppy who had everything I was looking for, who's breeder felt he was perfect for me and well...he was the only puppy I looked at LOL. Trained him, socialized him, had fun with him and didn't sweat the small stuff. People can say what they will but it's just sorta...whatever to me at this point. Why in the world should I have taken advice about a breed from someone who was unsuccessful with their dog anyway?
     
  12. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    You need to clone me a Savvy. Speaking of, we haven't seen pictures of the ScruffMutt in a while.

    We did that with Summer pretty much. She is very weird about being pushed on. Very soft that way and worries about people acting weird. But she took right to that and pulls like a champ now for her restrained recall. Well... as good as a dog her size can pull. :lol-sign:

    Agility has gotten a lot more fun and Mia is running MUCH nice now that I'm not pushing the start line so much. My trainer says especially with the small dogs, you see people do a running start more often. Summer holds stays like a champ. But she's the good dog of the family. ;)
     
  13. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    Yes, I think people sometimes get hung up on having a start line stay, to the detriment of their performance. That's where I was at with the girls... with Tully, I was so proud of her super stay, but eventually I realized that it was not what was best for her motivation. With Tess, we just fought over the stay. (which wasn't her fault. I was inconsistent, and you can not be inconsistent with a Stafford.) And the stress from that leaked into other areas of her performance.

    At some point you have to say "well hey, I'm supposed to be the big brain here, can't I think of another way to get this done?"

    That said, I'm pretty committed to having a stay with Pirate, because he is faster than Tess, and I'm still pretty slow. But I'm being a lot more thoughtful on keeping it.
     
  14. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I think this is the best thing I've ever heard in regards to dog training. Not even just start line stays or agility, but dog training in general.
     
  15. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I genuinely don't know what I would do with a dog as big and fast as Backup without a stay. I'm not very fast an I'm very clumsy. He needs a lot of management and not being out ahead of him seems daunting. However, time will tell.
     
  16. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    You're not the only one - I can think of at least two people on this board who have said before they wouldn't be able to manage their dogs without a start line stay! It's definitely handy to have at times.
     
  17. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I don't think anyone said it wasn't handy, it's it's not requirement to compete. I think most people would agree it's great to teach your young dog during foundation training. However, sometimes when you're dealing with older dogs with strongly ingrained behavior patterns that are causing start line issues (and stressing the dog out) you have to pick your battles. I'd say most people could probably handle their dogs without a start line stay with practice. I mean you have to be able to be in position and handle your dog out of motion during the rest of your run anyway :)
     
  18. CaliTerp07

    CaliTerp07 New Member

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    Boomerang starts are a nice substitute to a start line stay for wiggly and or easily demotivated dogs...
     
  19. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    As if! That's a good point to consider though.

    Tonight my friends wanted to run one of the few sequences from Silvia's Foundation course that asks for a start line stay. I jumped Pan at 20" and she didn't knock the first bar once! I swear, dogs love to prove us wrong. I also think that doing a lot of wraps, pushes, and tight crazy sequences have improved her jumping immensely.
     
  20. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    I quit using them with Auggie so nobody has to convince me they aren't a requirement to compete.
    But I think some of the attitudes are at best dismissive to people who feel having a start line stay is a lifeline.
     

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