Acceptable Breeding Practice

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Michiyo-Fir, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I think far too many idealize the world of the apbt prior to the 1970s but that is another thread. In short, association with the thread, the breeding for mass production has caused a great downfall of the breed. Pulling back on litters, rethinking to whom dogs go, and reworking our health testings and sporting/working venues would be a mild start, but in reality I am a fatalist.

    I do hope no other breeds follow in their foot steps, really. I wish the best for smaller breed pools and hope they remain safer with better health and stronger, more intelligent, and responsible owners be it pet, sport or work oriented.

    It really is a different world living in a mass media breed vs a kennel journal breed and I'm sure that effects the difference of opinions on the topic at hand.
     
  2. UniquityBelgians

    UniquityBelgians New Member

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    Thank you! :) Yes she does have small litters. She and her littermates were very ill as puppies. They contracted parvo, and the vet thought it'd be a good idea to vaccinate them for parvo when they already HAD it! Dumb vet. My vet treated them, and said it was the worst case of parvo she'd ever seen. They had so many distemper symptoms she thought they had a combination of both viruses. The pups had a very high fever for several weeks. Two of them died, and Visa was left with fertility issues. I did some research when she has her singleton puppy, and found that severe cases of parvo have been linked to fertility issues and infertility. The repro vet I consulted with opened her up and looked at her uterus, and said it was very healthy, and she believes it was the illness and high fever that has caused the issues. She recommended back-to-back breedings only because it would keep her uterus in shape, thus avoiding whelping problems and c-sections. We haven't had any problems since then! :)

    We'll have an even better idea of that when her daughters are bred. Of the 8 puppies from the litters I've had with her, 6 are in breeding homes. 3 of those are females who'll be bred. We do see some fertility issues in some lines, but mostly it's linked to using coat formulas made from organic arsenic.
     
  3. PatienceFlame

    PatienceFlame American Gamedog

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    Why would anyone want to mass produce litters? quality over quantity
    the quality of each well thought out and compatable lines should surpass the QUANTITY MILLER idea unless you just want to dish more shelter dogs out and not give a rats ass where they go just for a few bucks (Which imo 5-6litters is too many off ONE bitch and does nothing for that breeders breed of choice and will do more damage then good in the long run). A breeder should be focused on the temperment, drive and working ability with good conformation to beable to perform the task given to it and IMO ONLY if the breeding pair out produced itself should there be a repeat breeding and ONLY if there were a certain bloodline to preserve should a dog 7yrs or older be bred and only by someone with years of experiance.
     
  4. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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    I do agree wth quality over quantity.

    The breeder I'm talking about does have 25 yrs of experience. Even breeding 5 litters a year, the waitinglist is 6 months to a year and they're really careful in where there dogs go and I'm sure their dogs havent ended up in shelters.

    However, just because other people want puppies from your blood lines, does that justify so many puppies?
     
  5. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    Great question. It recently came up when discussing a few VERY popular overseas kennels and a couple very popular kennels stateside in papillons. My thought on is so long as the dogs being used are not over represented in the genepool (like a certain male papillon who has at least a hundred full registration descendants or a certain well used pom stud who has over 2500 offspring) and the quality of those offspring maintained and delegated to quality homes both as breeding animals and pets have at... with my blessing because that breeder is undertaking a far more difficult task than I would care to tackle.

    It was HARD finding a quality home for the one puppy I had available two years ago. I think I went through ten No - ways to find one that was an enthusiastic yes!. I can't imagine having to do that for litter upon litter and not letting my standards slip.

    Although now I have a small line for my next litter, I'm not sure that I'm ready for another dog so I'm dragging my feet about it. For me, breeding with intent to retain is what ensuring quality is about because it makes health a worry worth testing about, it makes balance of temperament worth checking into, it makes breeding a little less about titles and more about looking at the dog in front of you.
     
  6. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    A certain number of dogs is needed to maintain any breed's gene pool. Breeds are much more likely to have issues maintaining proper temperament and good overall health when their gene pools become too small. It is not about "expanding", it's about the ever decreasing numbers in some breeds and about maintaining a healthy breeding population in all breeds. Most of the 400 or so breeds in the world are rarely or never found in shelters in the US.

    :confused: Who said otherwise?

    Yep there is a shortage of quality dogs. Like I said earlier: For purebred dogs to continue, we need breeders breeding quality dogs.


    Again who said this? :confused:
     
  7. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    Well Solo will be bred just after her 2nd birthday (assuming health testing passed)

    So lets say, she has her puppies at 2.5yrs old. Great litter.
    I breed her again and she has puppies at 3.5yrs old. Littler #1 still looks great, and litter #2 is nice too. Consult repo vet, do back to back. Litter #3 at 4 years old, nice litter. Wait a year. Litter #4 at 5yrs old. Again nice litter. Puppies from other litters looking great. Consult repo vet again, get the go ahead. Wait a season. Litter #5 at 6 years old. Thats 5 litters of nice puppies. Is that bad? I dont think so. Assuming I dont have any issues finding homes and the litters are 4-5 puppies each.


    Would I breed Solo at 7 or 8? Yes, if she was healthy, had nice puppies in the past and the vet said it would be OK.

    Honestly I wouldnt do the # of litters I said above. To expensive and personaly I wouldnt have time. Also by the time she has litter #3 or #4 litter #1 would be old enough to breed, so if I chose to breed her daughter I would have to figgure that in too and I PERSONALY dont have the resorses for soemthing like that
     
  8. UniquityBelgians

    UniquityBelgians New Member

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    I find that in most cases, the most popular lines (the most common) are the ones that people seem to want the most. Which doesn't really justify tons of breeding, because they're already popular. When I first got into these lines, it was very frustrating for me. Few breeders were interested in them and I really had to make alot of contacts to find a group of people who still wanted the old lines. People want what is up and coming and being campaigned, and that is where popular stud syndrome comes in, and then where issues arise. Luckily I'm finding more and more breeders being picky about who gets to use their studs.
     
  9. UniquityBelgians

    UniquityBelgians New Member

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    I don't see anything wrong with this. It takes a knowledge of the dog involved, and common sense. By myself having five litters (and producing the amount that a normal dog would have in two normal sized litters), I'm not overpopulating the earth. I'm preserving a dying line.
    In the wild, the average is one litter every heat (annual). Obviously there's a point that they stop breeding, but I don't think they have a little clock that tells them to stop breeding when they're 7 because now they're too old. It's different for every dog, and it depends on what the breeder's goals are. Like I'd said before, I think waiting until the bitch is older is better for the breed as a whole. Too many dogs are bred young before their health status is truly known.
     
  10. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    I know in the case of the two breeders I talked about (the breeder of my dog here in the States and the breeder of my dog's dam over in Germany), the bitches bred were not from the more popular lines and did not have dogs in their pedigree that every other dog out there was line bred 3-4 on. And that, I actually found to be more justifiable than the same breeders breeding a similar bitch heavy on a popular dog in the recent history of the breed. There is a reason that the American show lines now will advertise "Dallas-free" despite the popularity of the dog itself.

    Absolutely! His contract doesn't just cover HD and ED, but from everything to temperament to health to something as comparably insignificant as size and color and whether or not ears stand. He'll take a dog back no matter what, and refund if the dog is younger than 2.

    Did someone say Riley puppies?!?

    Uh-oh. This is bad for my Papillon fever :yikes:
     
  11. puppydog

    puppydog Tru evil has no pantyline

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    :lol-sign:

    IF Riley turns out as well as we hope and passes all her health testing. She already has a CC point and is doing super well in agility, so I don't forsee any problems. She was checked for luxating patella about a month ago and was clear and will be check again at 2. She will also DRA test done at 2.
     
  12. Sit Stay

    Sit Stay Not a Border Collie

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    This is totally OT but Uniquity, do you know Bev (Jubilee Jewels English Shepherds)? I went on your website, and recognized your name I think from Facebook - I must have seen you on her list of friends and drooled over your dog! I love Groenendaels :)
     
  13. UniquityBelgians

    UniquityBelgians New Member

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    Yes I do know Bev! Small world!!! :) Thanks for the compliments about my dog!
     
  14. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    Without reading all the replies:

    1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
    It totally depends. If all the health testing is done, the bitch is having a good life, and the breeder is putting her care first and foremost, and it just so happens they can get 5 litters, then that's fine, but it also seems like it wouldn't be the usual case.
    2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
    again, if all the dogs are health tested, properly cared for, and the person is pretty much breeding as a full-time job, I don't see the problem. Especially for a rarer breed...however it comes to question if the breeder could reliably take back all the puppies who don't "work out" their their families, and so on. Generally if I saw a breeder doing this, it would turn me off.
    3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
    again, this is debatable. If everything else the breeder does is responsible, and the dog's health and happiness isn't compromised, it's not a huge deal. Especially if the dog only ever has two litters, and doesn't spend most of it's life pregnant.
    4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
    something else situation....I know some dogs that at 7 are in the prime of their life. If they're health tested, the vet gives the ok, and they're a dog with a life expectancy of 15 + years, I don't see why not. Breeding an 8 year old giant breed or a dog that's clearly starting to slow down, IMO, is not acceptable.

    Basically, I think it's mostly situational. I think it's way less acceptable for people to breed dogs that aren't health tested, titled in SOMETHING (even if it's just obedience or therapy work), have poor temperaments, or to breed and take no responsibility for puppies in the future. I'd go to a breeder that had a contract saying they would always take a puppy back if they bred back-to-back litters before I went to a breeder missing health tests that did everything by the books, and so on.
     
  15. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    I'm just going to quote RD, since my opinion is exactly the same. lol
     
  16. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
    I think that is excessive. Reason: I buy from people who "do things" with their dogs. You can't be active in multiple sports and still have a bitch whelp five litters before she's ancient. It's just simply not possible. Most people I train and compete with are lucky to get 3 litters. I really like the number 3.

    2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
    Once again, looking for performance/sport/active dogs. No way to have time off from competing and training to adequately whelp and raise 5-6 litters in a single year. Caveat: "my" toller breeders co-own a great number of dogs. Their name is on multiple litters each year. Not necessarily dogs living with them.

    3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
    I could see breeding one, waiting to see how puppies turn out, then (and only then) doing a back to back breeding for litters 2 & 3.

    4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
    I see no problem with this if the bitch is physically sound.
     
  17. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    See, for me I'd be looking more for a breeder who waited until their giant breed female was "senior" (7+) before breeding her. Many health problems in giant breeds (osteosarcoma, bloat, for example) tend to show up before 5 years of age if the dog has a genetic tendency toward them. If you breed her at 3 and 5, then she gets osteo at 7... you've just passed a tendency for bone cancer to over 20 puppies. And at 7, she might already have grandpuppies from her first litter. If two daughters were bred, that could be an additional 20. If her sons were bred, who knows how many females they could be used on before the problem is detected. :( Kaia's grandam was 9 when she was bred for her first and only litter, then went on to live for several more long healthy years. Her sire wasn't bred until he was older than 5 even though he was a nationally ranked male and she could have been making extra stud $$ off him.

    If you wait until 7 or 8 and she's still in great condition and doing fine, you're passing on both health AND longevity. If you wait until the sire is elderly or dead (doing a semen collection when he's young and virile) you can select sires with long lives that die of natural old age rather than disease. Sure, it might mean you only get one, maybe two litters out of her instead of more, but if those are issues in your breed that's what's best for the breed. And most giant breeds (mastiffs, borzoi, deerhounds, etc.) struggle with issues like those. Borzois less than the others, partly because more than a few put off breeding until their dogs are older.

    I know of one breeder who had a large litter deerhounds. When they hit 7 years old, every single one of those puppies died of osteosarcoma within months of each other. I have no idea if any of them were bred, but it's a good reason to wait.
     
  18. Sit Stay

    Sit Stay Not a Border Collie

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    You're very welcome - they're a breed I've never met in real life but I would absolutely love to.

    Small world is right! I just love Bev's dogs - don't know her IRL but she seems like a very nice lady as well. Quinn's dam was supposed to be bred to Cole this spring but unfortunately timing wasn't right with Bev's surgery.
     
  19. MaryAndDobes

    MaryAndDobes New Member

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    In theory, I agree with you. But with bitches of larger breeds, you're probably going to run into fertility issues if you wait this long. Plus you risk her getting pyometra every time she goes through a season waiting to get to breed her.

    I personally try to wait to breed my Doberman females until they are 4 or so because I figure it just gives them more time to show me a problem so they can be removed from the gene pool. I also try to select older stud dogs. I'm trying to build pedigrees that provide one with 25 years or more of info in 5 generations, and by info I mean longevity information and cause of death knowledge.

    However, I do see some fertility issues and litter size issues by waiting with the bitches. I've had larger litters with 3 year olds, and small litters (1 or 2 puppies) with bitches over 4 or 5.
     
  20. YodelDogs

    YodelDogs New Member

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    My answers depend heavily on what breed is being questioned.

    1 and 2. A toy breed may only produce 2-3 puppies per litter so 5 litters might mean a grand total of 10-15 puppies. I have no problem with that. A giant breed may produce 10 or more puppies per litter which ends up being 50+ puppies. I do have a problem with this. That many puppies over a female's lifetime is seriously detrimental and there is no reason to put her through all that.

    3. Depends on how big the litters are, how far apart her seasons are, and her overall health. I have Basenjis. The girls come in season once a year and litter size is 4-5 puppies. We have no problem breeding an outstanding, healthy female for 3 years in a row. I seriously doubt that I would breed a female that came into season only 4 months after weaning a large litter. A healthy girl can probably handle it but it would wear her down.

    4. I would not breed any breed at that age for a first litter but if the female has whelped before and isn't a very large or giant breed then I have no problem with it.
     

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