20 week abortions...

[Miakoda]

And yet puppies and kittens are euthanized in a vastly more humane manner than are human babies.

If I were to kill puppies by using a scalpel to slice an opening at the back of the head beneath the skull, insert a vacuum to suck the brain matter how, and then slice the legs off, I'd be put in jail faster than I could lay the scalpel down. Yet this is exactly how an abortion is performed.

It's sad that we offer lowly animals a pain-free death, but refuse to even consider the same for a fetus because that would be admitting there's a problem with abortions, and that would be a blow to the pro-choice side.

I stand in the middle, firmly pro-choice, by *choice*, not because I don't want to offend anyone. Earlier in my life I abstained from sex so that I wouldn't have to make a choice; now that I'm at a different stage in life I am comfortable that if I found out I was pregnant I would opt to keep that child, but I am an individual, and my choices need not force the hand of others. What is good for me, may not be good for someone else and I try hard to keep that in mind!

I come at this a bit from the animal welfare side of things - in the animal welfare realm death itself is not a "harm". The way that death is handled *is* important, but the actual death is a neutral. It may sound harsh, but to me, abortion is not a true "harm" - it is a humane death and the fetus/child/collection of cells/being's loss of possibilities does not come near carrying the same weight as the mother's life/needs because those are real, not possibilities. I realize that many may not agree, but that's ok, I just felt it might be helpful to provide my perspective.

And of course, all that being said, I'm not quite sure that this changes anything about the OP for me!

 

[sillysally]

I think everyone knows how I feel about this.

We didn't know it at the time but it turns out at 11 weeks hannah was already developing "habits" in the womb. My 11 week ultrasound she had her right hand up by her face. Next ultrasound... same deal. when she was born, anytime she was swaddled she had to get that right hand up and out to put it by her face. whens he was in the NICU they had to move her IV out of her hand because she insisted on having that hand up by her face instead of taped down to a stiff board. No matter how much tape they used they could NOT keep that hand in place. she was persistant lol.

She may not have been able to survive out of the womb yet at 11 weeks but she was most certainly her own person by then and not just a mass of cells.

medical nessecity, OK. 20 week abortions just because... No I can't support that. especially when we have the technology where 23 week preemies actually stand a pretty decent chance at survival. We had a wee little guy next to us in the NICU that was a 23 weeker. cutest teeniest little guy you've ever seen with SO much black hair. he looked like a little spider monkey. adorable. he left the hospital before his actual due date. Now he's a healthy, normal, rambunctious boy lol.

As long as it's legal... do whatever you want but I won't be able to stand in support of it just because "it's your choice". sometimes peoples choices SUCK lol

In the case of the OP story, it just didnt' make any sense. The baby was not going to survive... period. so there shouldn't have been a question about whether to deliver or not. the questionnaire should be "what percentage chance does the baby have of surviving to term? 90% or less... they should have the right to terminate" I don't even know that they were really asking for an abortion, they asked for labor to be induced and let nature take it's course. that's not even what abortion is.

This.

I used to be very hard core pro-choice, but the older I get the more disillusioned I get with the pro-choice movement in general. I would not support a complete abortion ban, but an abortion at 20 weeks (unless there is a health issue) is too late in the pregnancy IMO.

 

[sillysally]

This

And yet puppies and kittens are euthanized in a vastly more humane manner than are human babies.

If I were to kill puppies by using a scalpel to slice an opening at the back of the head beneath the skull, insert a vacuum to suck the brain matter how, and then slice the legs off, I'd be put in jail faster than I could lay the scalpel down. Yet this is exactly how an abortion is performed.

It's sad that we offer lowly animals a pain-free death, but refuse to even consider the same for a fetus because that would be admitting there's a problem with abortions, and that would be a blow to the pro-choice side.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[faustus]

I'm also pro-choice. I don't know what I would do if I ever had to make that choice, and I hope I never have to find out. If that situation ever arose I would hope that I would be legally allowed to make the decision for myself and my body,

I like the ridiculous examples my ethics teacher used, like this one:
You were walking down the street minding your own business when suddenly you are attacked from behind and knocked unconscious! You awake in your bed and find yourself hooked up via tubes to another man. He explains that he has a rare disease that can only be cured by being hooked up to another human being for 9 months. After the 9 months are up he will be completely cured and will be fine. If disconnected though he will surely die. Do you have any obligation to stay hooked up to this man for 9 months? I mean, he's a person too, he has a right to life. But at the same time you also have a right to bodily autonomy. Is his right to life more important than your right to bodily autonomy?

I realize this case is alluding more to a pregnancy that occurred due to rape, but it's still interesting to think about.

Also, a note on the whole 'pro-abortionist' term, by that logic a pro-lifer could also be referred to as 'anti-woman's rights.' I don't believe that pro-lifers are specifically campaigning to reduce women's rights, just as us pro-choicers are not specifically campaigning for everyone to go out and have abortions. Pro-lifers are concerned with every babies' rights to life and pro-choicers are concerned about women's rights to choose what to do with their body. Please don't refer to any of us pro-choicers as pro-abortion as it is inaccurate, just as it would be if all us pro-choicers called all the pro-lifers anti-women's rights.

 

[sillysally]

I'm also pro-choice. I don't know what I would do if I ever had to make that choice, and I hope I never have to find out. If that situation ever arose I would hope that I would be legally allowed to make the decision for myself and my body,

I like the ridiculous examples my ethics teacher used, like this one:
You were walking down the street minding your own business when suddenly you are attacked from behind and knocked unconscious! You awake in your bed and find yourself hooked up via tubes to another man. He explains that he has a rare disease that can only be cured by being hooked up to another human being for 9 months. After the 9 months are up he will be completely cured and will be fine. If disconnected though he will surely die. Do you have any obligation to stay hooked up to this man for 9 months? I mean, he's a person too, he has a right to life. But at the same time you also have a right to bodily autonomy. Is his right to life more important than your right to bodily autonomy?

I realize this case is alluding more to a pregnancy that occurred due to rape, but it's still interesting to think about.

Also, a note on the whole 'pro-abortionist' term, by that logic a pro-lifer could also be referred to as 'anti-woman's rights.' I don't believe that pro-lifers are specifically campaigning to reduce women's rights, just as us pro-choicers are not specifically campaigning for everyone to go out and have abortions. Pro-lifers are concerned with every babies' rights to life and pro-choicers are concerned about women's rights to choose what to do with their body. Please don't refer to any of us pro-choicers as pro-abortion as it is inaccurate, just as it would be if all us pro-choicers called all the pro-lifers anti-women's rights.

I would stay hooked up to the guy, but that's just me.....I think it would be kind of horrible to unhook myself and watch someone die because I didn't want to be inconvenienced for 9 months.

 

[M&M's Mommy]

Do you have a source for that?

Do a yahoo/google search for "late term abortion" procedure/photos (any abortion performed after the first trimester (13 weeks) is considered late term). Be warned of the highly graphic, and heartwrentching, overwhelming sadness of the pictures. I could not look pass the first one.

 

[sillysally]

Also, a note on the whole 'pro-abortionist' term, by that logic a pro-lifer could also be referred to as 'anti-woman's rights.' I don't believe that pro-lifers are specifically campaigning to reduce women's rights, just as us pro-choicers are not specifically campaigning for everyone to go out and have abortions. Pro-lifers are concerned with every babies' rights to life and pro-choicers are concerned about women's rights to choose what to do with their body. Please don't refer to any of us pro-choicers as pro-abortion as it is inaccurate, just as it would be if all us pro-choicers called all the pro-lifers anti-women's rights.

Honestly, I don't know why both "sides" aren't just call themselves "pro" and "anti" abortion. On the subject of horse slaughter that is what's done. I would call myself "pro-slaughter." I love horses and am not all like "Yeah, let's go slaughter some horses," but I feel that slaughter is a necessary evil and am therefore "pro-slaughter."

 

[M&M's Mommy]

Also, a note on the whole 'pro-abortionist' term, by that logic a pro-lifer could also be referred to as 'anti-woman's rights.' I don't believe that pro-lifers are specifically campaigning to reduce women's rights, just as us pro-choicers are not specifically campaigning for everyone to go out and have abortions. Pro-lifers are concerned with every babies' rights to life and pro-choicers are concerned about women's rights to choose what to do with their body. Please don't refer to any of us pro-choicers as pro-abortion as it is inaccurate, just as it would be if all us pro-choicers called all the pro-lifers anti-women's rights.

Within the context of this discussion, and when abortion is regarded, the woman' choice that pro-choicers are supporting IS the choice to kill her unborn; therefore, when one supports a women's choice to abort, one actually supports the killing of her baby. It doesn't make any sense to argue that "but but her choice may be not to abort her child". Well, if her choice is to carry the baby to term, then abortion wouldn't be the subject matter in the first place, isn't it?

As extreme & hypothetical as it may be, I would not have any problems if a women's choice is to cut her arm off, or shave her head, or whatever she wants with her other body parts. As long as it doesn't kill her (I would not support her choice to suicide, or use drugs that potentially kill her!), or anyone (her developing fetus). She doesn't have the authority to decide when her life, or others' end.

I don't mind being label "Anti-woment's right" when the "Right" refers only to the right to kill her unborn.

 

[LostAndConfused]

Honestly, I don't know why both "sides" aren't just call themselves "pro" and "anti" abortion. On the subject of horse slaughter that is what's done. I would call myself "pro-slaughter." I love horses and am not all like "Yeah, let's go slaughter some horses," but I feel that slaughter is a necessary evil and am therefore "pro-slaughter."

I don't know why they don't call themselves "pro-choice" and "anti-choice"

 

[LauraLeigh]

I don't know...... I can't get my head around abortion, I just can't.... I claimed in the past to be pro-choice... And insofar as rape and the health of the mother, things like that I firmly believe that should not be up for discussion.. But, having an adopted brother who would not be here had his Birth Mom chose abortion, and just from a purely emotional belief after seeing my daughters 3D scans and her early ultrasounds that unborn babies are just unborn, but are living, feeling, babies...

I understand that I can't force my "feelings" on others, abortion is legal, but I can't think about it without a lot of sadness... So I honestly don't know where I fall per say... But I sure as hec could never do it myself (My first being born when I was a young, unmarried 17 kinda tells you that anyways) I will say, when I found myself pregnant we did discuss adoption, but abortion was not on the table for me... And as much as I understand not wanting to tell others what to do with their bodies, my heart screams otherwise... So I usually avoid any talk of this topic as it can get heated and I don't want to be thought less of by Pro Choice friends because I can't fully get behind abortion...

I hope that made some kind of sense??? LOL

 

[M&M's Mommy]

I don't know why they don't call themselves "pro-choice" and "anti-choice"

Because it's just terminology. I don't necessarily have any problems with people calling themselves pro-choice. I do, however, have problems undertanding one's position when he/she says "I'm against abortion, but pro-choice", and so I just wanted to point out that when abortion is regarded & the "choice" is to abort, these two positions are direct opposite and one can't be both! You are either against abortion (pro-life, anti-abortion), or for abortion (pro-abortion).

 

[sillysally]

I don't know why they don't call themselves "pro-choice" and "anti-choice"

Well, because it is inaccurate in that it doesn't really deal with the subject, which is abortion. Cut out the "choice" and "life" spin and just call a spade a spade. It's about abortion--one side is for the legality of it and the other side is against the legality of of it. Just like pro/anti BSL, pro/anti death penalty, pro/anti drug legalization, etc.

 

[M&M's Mommy]

8 pages without turning this thread into a battle field... we're doing pretty good at having a mature, civilized, well-constructed discussion regarding the most heated subject of all times, don't ya think?

It's time for me to retreat again. I have an appointment with the OB to take a peek at my little bean See ya all tomorrow!

 

[Paige]

I am 100% pro abortion. For whatever reason that person feels. It is too much of a grey area. If oyu take away that right people suffer like the original post and to me that does not justify it.

 

[LostAndConfused]

Well, because it is inaccurate in that it doesn't really deal with the subject, which is abortion. Cut out the "choice" and "life" spin and just call a spade a spade. It's about abortion--one side is for the legality of it and the other side is against the legality of of it. Just like pro/anti BSL, pro/anti death penalty, pro/anti drug legalization, etc.

I disagree partly. I think the discussing is equally about a person's right to chose what is best for them and their situation.

 

[Shai]

Well, because it is inaccurate in that it doesn't really deal with the subject, which is abortion. Cut out the "choice" and "life" spin and just call a spade a spade. It's about abortion--one side is for the legality of it and the other side is against the legality of of it. Just like pro/anti BSL, pro/anti death penalty, pro/anti drug legalization, etc.

By those examples we should call it pro-/anti-abortion legislation, or pro-/anti-legal abortion, not merely pro-/anti-abortion.

 

[Teal]

My belief is, it's NONE of YOUR business what someone else wishes to do with their body.

People are incredibly selfish, and for some reason like to blame other people for that.

So you are trying to get pregnant and are not succeeding?
That does NOT give you the right to want to create laws against people who get pregnant and want to terminate. It's not THEIR fault YOU can't get pregnant, so don't take it out on them.

So someone dumped a baby in a dumpster, a baby you would have given almost everything to adopt?
That does NOT give you the right to condemn that person because they didn't think of the possible desires of others.

It's like an extreme form of jealousy! Someone else has something you want, or didn't want something you want but can't have... so you get upset and want laws to be passed to prevent it from happening again? Seriously? Not everyone's lives are made equal, and no one's personal choices regarding their body should be dictated by rules created by someone living a different life. And since no two people live EXACTLY the same lives, being that they are different people... well, there you have it.

In the end... It shouldn't be about what YOU or I think.

I'm pro-choice, too - when the choices are to say what you want (freedom of speech), choose what faith/religion you believe in (freedom of religions), or a millions other things - but even these freedom have limitations, i.e, freedom of speech doesn't mean one can yell "Fire!" in a crowed theater, and freedom of religion doesn't mean you can kill/harass others who don't share your belief in the name of your religion, etc... True freedom doesn't mean one can do whatever he wants whenever he wants it, let alone when what he wants costs the life of other!

Technically, YES you CAN yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. You might get in trouble for inciting unnecessary panic, but there is nothing actually preventing one from doing such.

And aren't entire wars and feuds based on religion, and millions of people over the years have died because of religious differences?

I don't think I'm contradicting. All I'm saying is, IF you (a general you) personally think abortion is wrong, then you should be consistent in your opinion & stand firm on the side of protecting precious lives, not swaying with one foot in & one foot out like, "it's wrong for me", but "right for you" so you go ahead!" So, because I think abortion is wrong (period), I would NOT be pro-choice, when the choice in question is to abort the baby. Someone said that choices could mean "to abort the baby or not", I don't see how the "or not" supports the arguement, as all pro-lifers would be thrilled to stand behind this "choice"!!

I think you're incredibly contradicting. You say you are pro-choice... but only for certain choices. That's not being consistent in your opinion on being pro-choice, yet you expect others to be consistent with their opinion regarding abortions just because it's one area you have no grey area in?

I'm not trying to start a fight, by any means... I just find your way of thinking quite curious.

 

[sillysally]

I disagree partly. I think the discussing is equally about a person's right to chose what is best for them and their situation.

But the choice involved is specifically about *abortion*. The terms "choice" and "life" are deliberately vague spin IMHO. If there was no abortion in the equation, there would be no choice to make or no life to be trying to save. Maybe instead of pro/anti death penalty it should "pro-eye for an eye" and "anti-revenge".....

 

[sillysally]

By those examples we should call it pro-/anti-abortion legislation, or pro-/anti-legal abortion, not merely pro-/anti-abortion.

That's fine, but people tend to to shorten things to one or two word snippets. And again, it's "pro-slaughter" and "anti-slaughter" when it comes to horse slaughter, and that's dealing with the legality of the sale of horses for slaughter.

 

[LauraLeigh]

It's like an extreme form of jealousy! Someone else has something you want, or didn't want something you want but can't have... so you get upset and want laws to be passed to prevent it from happening again? Seriously? Not everyone's lives are made equal, and no one's personal choices regarding their body should be dictated by rules created by someone living a different life. And since no two people live EXACTLY the same lives, being that they are different people... well, there you have it.
]

I don't think it's jealousy... I think it's a kind of empathy from being aware of the fact that there are so many people who'd love to have the child, not saying that means they should get to "say" what happens, just saying that calling those feelings jealously is IMO a stretch... I never had a problem having a child, so nothing for me to be jealous of... But I have the same hesitations about it.... I can't after seeing the detailed scans Jenn had, and watching the baby on that screen do many the same motions as a newborn, any longer consider an unborn baby a bunch of cells... I just can't... My heart won't allow me.. And because I know my heart crying out is not a rational argument I tend to avoid these debates as a rule... But calling it jealousy is IMO a serious stretch