two males do NOT get along

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tessa_s212

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#1
We first introduced Marq(intact) to Spook(neutered) on neutral ground while at the humane society before we brought Spook home with us. They sniffed each other and Spook reacted with excessive barking, a bit of pulling at the leash, and lunging and even making contact. Spook appeared excited, hits tail up and even slightly wagging throughout. Marq had no reaction at all other than to get away to not get bitten. He was not scared of him and never once returned any sort of aggression at all, even when bitten.

We could not leave him there, so we've just been keeping them separate in the house. While at first Spook could not even have Marq in sight without barking excessively at him, now Marq can be crated in the same room with Spook loose without Spook barking at him. Marq now can also be roaming around the house with Spook crated without Spook barking. (Unless Marq comes too close to the crate or sniffs him through the crate, then the barking starts all over again.) The goal is to eventually have them get along when supervised and both uncrated.

We've just been taking it very slow, getting Spoook used to the presence of Marq slowly over time.

What else can we be doing to help Spook tolerate and get along with Marq?
 

Dekka

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#2
Are you keeping this dog?

If not I see no need for them to 'learn' to get along. Marq already has issues, it might not be fair to ask him to live with a dog that has issues with him.
 
T

tessa_s212

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#3
Are you keeping this dog?

If not I see no need for them to 'learn' to get along. Marq already has issues, it might not be fair to ask him to live with a dog that has issues with him.
He is a foster. He could be here for as long as a month or two. In that time, I'd rather work to help them get along rather than just avoid the problem and constantly keep them separated and crated. In our house the dogs have free roam and run loose. We'd just rather not have to keep one or the other crated while all the rest get to run loose.

Marq isn't the dog with issues, it is Misha. Misha is our dog aggressive ESS. And so far, we've introduced her and Spook very slowly and she is tolerating him. At first there were times when Spook got TOO close to her too fast and she gave a warning growl, and we immediately diffused the situation and stepped in to show Misha that we were in control and she had to reason to be afraid because we would handle it. She can now get along and tolerate him. She still chooses to sit opposite of him on the couch and such, but she is getting along, not growling, and even not caring if they are close enough to be touching. She is still not overly happy about sharing attention, but we are not experiencing aggression problems with her.

I feared there would be some that would criticize our(mothers, twin's and my) choice to bring another dog into our house. I acknowledge our house is not the best situation for a foster dog. Most certainly not. We have too many dogs, a dog reactive dog, too many health issues, and sometimes flea problems in the spring and summer. However, it was either leave him there and watch him waste away until he was euthanized, or take him out, foster him, get into contact with a rescue, and fatten him up and give him a chance at life until we can get him to a new foster home with aid of the rescue.

As for as the dog with issues goes, if anything this dog is one more step in HELPING her, believe it or not. Getting over her fear of this dog is just one more dog - one more small baby step in the fight we have with her reactivity issues. (Because Spook is awesome with all of our other dogs and adores all the females. He will lay down and just relax while we can work with Misha by letting her coming up and sniffing him without him reacting to her at all. He really has been an awesome dog to help Misha work through her problems.)
 

Dekka

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#4
Sorry I must be confused, (happens easily) I though Marq was the dog that had bitten other dogs, and had some reactivity issues.

But really IME it can take months or longer for dogs to get along, and it can be very stressful. If I have a foster that the others don't like, or vice versa, I don't force them to be together. In a month or two you may not get them together, you could make it worse. First you have to make sure that you are in control of the situation, at no time should any dog feel threatened to the point of showing teeth. You should keep them separated except when you are actively working with the dogs. You need to work both dogs within their comfort zone. If both dogs are dog reactive that means one human per dog. You will need LOTS of desensitization. You may not notice any improvement in that short a period of time, but who ever gets the dog will appreciate the work you do.
 
T

tessa_s212

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#5
Sorry I must be confused, (happens easily) I though Marq was the dog that had bitten other dogs, and had some reactivity issues.

But really IME it can take months or longer for dogs to get along, and it can be very stressful. If I have a foster that the others don't like, or vice versa, I don't force them to be together. In a month or two you may not get them together, you could make it worse. First you have to make sure that you are in control of the situation, at no time should any dog feel threatened to the point of showing teeth. You should keep them separated except when you are actively working with the dogs. You need to work both dogs within their comfort zone. If both dogs are dog reactive that means one human per dog. You will need LOTS of desensitization. You may not notice any improvement in that short a period of time, but who ever gets the dog will appreciate the work you do.
It's alright. With 8 dogs, and the names sounding relatively alike(Misha, Marq) I understand! :)

I understand it will be a long and slow process. But I would like to attempt to work it out. Not only for the foster, in hopes of resolving his issue with Marq, but for Marq so he does not have to live part of his days in a crate(he's not used to it). I certainly understand it might never happen, but I also know dogs can overcome aggression and reactivity issues if given a chance and worked with in a safe, controlled environment.

The dogs are ALWAYS separated. When Spook is loose, Marq is in my room with me or locked in the crate. When Marq is loose, Spook is either in my sister's room with her, or locked in a crate. When they are switched during the day, my mom has my brother help by holding one dog a far distance from the other and releasing one dog from the crate and puts the other back into the crate. If we want to let one loose, we are in communication with each other telling each other if we are going to - not allowing for mistakes or confusion on who's turn it is to be out or in the crate or locked in the rooms.

Marq is not one bit reactive towards spook. However, no matter there WILL be one person per dog. My sister with Spook, I with Marq. Or, if she proves to not be able to read and handle Spook as well(because I am the more knowledgeable and experienced one when it comes to behavior for I have read more and researched longer), I will take spook and she will take Marq.

Not only will we be working him through this little reactivity issue(though the rescue is not at all concerned with the fact that he doesn't get along with an intact dog), we will also be working more on sit, down, stay, come and loose leash walking. He knows sit, but I would like to get a rock solid sit no matter the distractions. He listens to his name and come, but again... just want to proof the behavior. Other than that, he truly is just a wonderful dog.


I understand a bit about the process of desensitization. I understand it must be taken extremely slowly. I plan to reward for good behavior, and will increase the criteria(closeness to Marq) over a very long and extended time period. I will not try to treat his aggression with aggression, but rather read his signals clearly and diffuse any kind of barking, lunging or snapping before it happens. (We've already begun to learn his signals. He at first usually sniffs, stares and stands still, and then reacts.) Right now we've only been continually getting Spook used to Marq through use of the crate. When at first the sight of Marq would get him going, now Spook can usually be alright with Marq in sight. What we'd like to do is to get them out of crates, both on leash and on opposite sides of the room relaxing and not paying attention to each other. I will work in proofing Marq's down, and I hope to be able to place Marq in a supervised down(one handler per dog) and slowly work Spook into coming closer and closer to Marq without reacting. I don't honestly believe this will be a huge problem, until Spook sniffs Marq. The sniffing seems to be teh source of the problem and hte start of all the reactivity issues.
 

Brattina88

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#6
Tessa, have you ever read Click to Calm?
I think there are some theories and exercises that would help a lot with cases like these...
I own it ;)
 
T

tessa_s212

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#7
Tessa, have you ever read Click to Calm?
I think there are some theories and exercises that would help a lot with cases like these...
I own it ;)
No, I cannot get it through the library, and I cannot afford to buy myself food, let alone a book.
 

lizzybeth727

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#9
Yeah, this is about the tenth time you've had a question that's directly discussed in Click to Calm, it would be a great investment for you.

Meanwhile, with these two dogs, I'd suggest doing what you can to manage the situation, and prevent any kind of reactive situations. If the dogs practice those behaviors, they will only get worse.
 
T

tessa_s212

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#10
Yeah, this is about the tenth time you've had a question that's directly discussed in Click to Calm, it would be a great investment for you.

Meanwhile, with these two dogs, I'd suggest doing what you can to manage the situation, and prevent any kind of reactive situations. If the dogs practice those behaviors, they will only get worse.
I am not sure how it could be the tenth time when I hardly ever post questions about my dogs on the forum.

I am hopefully going to get the book sent to me so that I can read over it and take notes. But I cannot purchase it(though I would LOVE to, for I am a book addict!).
 

lizzybeth727

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#12
I watched the clip three times and I don't see anything in it that says either dog is being mean. Marq seems a little standoffish, but I think if you let go of the collar he'll probably be fine.

But what I saw was that Spook's body stayed relatively loose the whole time, his tail never stopped wagging. At the beginning he was sniffing, exploring (all polite - neck, cheeks, genitals, etc.), then after he figured out who Marq was, he initiated play (trying to get under Marq toward the end of the clip, jumping on and pawing Marq). He was barking because you were holding him back and Marq wasn't playing along, but the bark even sounded just like frustration, not at all mean or aggressive.

I don't know Marq's history with dogs, but from that clip what I'd suggest is to put Spook on a leash (so you can grab him quickly), and let them play freely. If Spook starts to play too rough and you see Marq get uncomfortable, you can grab the leash and let Marq get away.
 
T

tessa_s212

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#13
I watched the clip three times and I don't see anything in it that says either dog is being mean. Marq seems a little standoffish, but I think if you let go of the collar he'll probably be fine.

But what I saw was that Spook's body stayed relatively loose the whole time, his tail never stopped wagging. At the beginning he was sniffing, exploring (all polite - neck, cheeks, genitals, etc.), then after he figured out who Marq was, he initiated play (trying to get under Marq toward the end of the clip, jumping on and pawing Marq). He was barking because you were holding him back and Marq wasn't playing along, but the bark even sounded just like frustration, not at all mean or aggressive.

I don't know Marq's history with dogs, but from that clip what I'd suggest is to put Spook on a leash (so you can grab him quickly), and let them play freely. If Spook starts to play too rough and you see Marq get uncomfortable, you can grab the leash and let Marq get away.
If you watch very closely, you can see that Spook actually attempted to bite Marq. The day we brought Spook home, Spook did bite and make contact - twice. The only way they are getting close to each other or ever allowed to 'play' is after training and desensitization. Spook isn't just wanting to play, and the biting is proof of that.

Marq came to me from a show breeder. He's been to countless dog shows, to several different countries and lived with many different dogs. Even the first time when Spook bit Marq, Marq had no aggressive reaction what so ever. Not even a growl. However in this clip you can see that Marq finally had a bit of a reaction, stepping back and letting out a short growl due to the surprise. The only way Marq could be causing the problem is if simply it is what the rescue has said - and that is that Spook does not like him because he is intact.
 

elegy

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#14
my dogs bite each other constantly. it's play.

if these dogs really do have an aggression issue, you need to put all the other dogs away every time you have them out together. you also need to not let them meet face to face, but from the side. walk them together, not allowing them to come in contact. let spook calm and get used to his new surroundings. you're throwing an awful lot at him awfully quick. his whole world has been turned upside down.
 
T

tessa_s212

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#15
my dogs bite each other constantly. it's play.

if these dogs really do have an aggression issue, you need to put all the other dogs away every time you have them out together. you also need to not let them meet face to face, but from the side. walk them together, not allowing them to come in contact. let spook calm and get used to his new surroundings. you're throwing an awful lot at him awfully quick. his whole world has been turned upside down.
Elegy, they are constantly and always separated. When one is loose, the other is crated.

He's actually settled right in. He gets along terrifically with all the dogs, and even our DA dog, Misha, loves him and cuddles with him. He doesn't mind being thrown into his new surroundings!
 

Brattina88

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#16
I am by no means an expert!!!
However, I watched the video a couple of times and will give my honest opinion.
Spook's body language appears very loose and wiggly, almost puppy-wiggly. His tail was wagging the whole time... It was wagging sort of high (though I don't know how he normally carries his tail, so its hard to be sure) but other than that he wasn't showing many dominance related behavior - at one point he was practically under Marq lol.
The bite looked like play to me as well. He wasn't getting much of a reaction from Marq, and probably wanted more. No doubt Marq growled at him... looks almost as if an adult dog is correcting a younger dog. How old are both of them again? Marq's tail was also wagging, but his ears were kind of flat - IMHO he looked like he felt trapped.
I am led to believe that if he wanted to hurt Marq, and was truly aggressive he would have already done so. Also, its hard to tell from the video because it ends after the nip and the growl, with them being pulled apart. ;)

I agree with this:
from the clip what I'd suggest is to put Spook on a leash (so you can grab him quickly), and let them play freely. If Spook starts to play too rough and you see Marq get uncomfortable, you can grab the leash and let Marq get away.
edited to add:
I'll try and find my books ASAP ;)
I was going to look for it today, but my friend (the one w Mia) wanted me and Maddie to go out to a couple pet stores with her and Mia for socialization, and to see how her training is progressing :D
 

elegy

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#17
Elegy, they are constantly and always separated. When one is loose, the other is crated.
yes, but in the video where you're setting out to illustrate their aggression, you have another dog loose. if there had been a fight, you're setting yourself up for further disaster by doing that.
 
T

tessa_s212

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#18
yes, but in the video where you're setting out to illustrate their aggression, you have another dog loose. if there had been a fight, you're setting yourself up for further disaster by doing that.
He gets along with all of our other dogs. Marq is the only dog that he does not like. There were three of us out there, and Marq is not the type to fight back. Even if Spook would have done more than just bark and attempt a bite, the situation would have been very quickly diffused.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uAmwkvXSyks

And actually we weren't trying to illustrate their aggression, but instead their friendliness. Just moments before they were walking past and ignoring each other.
 

Brattina88

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#20
I saw that! :p



Tessa, (correct me if I'm wrong elegy) I believe what elegy was trying to say is, perhaps when you let spook and Marq interact, the other dogs should be confined.
If Spook did for some reason initiate an attack, it would be easy for a one-on-one fight to turn into a two-on-one, etc etc. It would be easier to prevent it than to defuse it . . . . ? ;)
 

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