Smaller performance dog?

Thought I'd ask on here what people liked/didn't like about some of the smaller 'performance' dog breeds out there.

Currently we have two goldens and a border collie, all are doing agility and rally, or training towards that goal. However I'd like to get a smaller dog for the experience as well as something that possibly my son can handle when he's much older. There's no rush, I'm thinking in two years or so depending on things. I do teach classes and have access to agility equipment as well, right now not as much as I'd like but in a few years should have all the training time I need/want.

Anyhow I'm looking at a JRT, Sheltie, Pap or mini aussie mostly.

The JRT's around here are mostly go to ground if anything, not a lot of choice in the matter, and I've seen some that I'd find too soft for my tastes.

The shelties, some oversized huge high drive ones, or just conformation only breeders. My concern there is mostly getting one that 'does' have drive and isn't fearful of everything, and grooming - how much grooming do they really need?

Paps seem pretty cool, most of them. My concern there would be the bigger dogs who play hard doing some damage to them, I don't want to have to do separate walks to prevent that, and the two younger dogs are pretty mouthy and rough in play.

Mini aussies are neat, but not recognized here yet, so that's a toss, as well there isn't any local breeders I'd go to, which isn't a big deal, but I'm always concerned with being on the end of the list because I'm not local...

Thoughts?

Lana

We have a miniature Schnazuer mix and he's a great mix of sturdiness and athleticism. He's more biddible than a lot of typical performance dogs but he is soft in certain situations. However, the second we're on an agility course he's as drivey as they get.

If this is a dog that your son is going to be handling, I don't think a JRT or a Pap will be good. JRT's are small, but they are just as much dog as any other working dog. A Pap is small, but I'm not sure if they are sturdy enough to withstand a child.

I think a Sheltie would be great. They do require some grooming, but as far as I know, it isn't unbearable. Our trainer (Auggie can chime in here) has Shelties that are incredible at agility and conformation. One of them is has a MACh2 and a Westminster Runner-up. They are small, athletic, and a lot of fun.

I've seen some serious health problems with Mini Aussie's. Since they are so new and they've basically only been bred for size, a lot of the problems are hard to diagnose and have no precedent. Risky.

It is incredibly easy to find shelties that boht show and do things like agility and obedience and other performance sports if you look around a bit. Trey came from a show/performance breeder and would have done well in higher level agility than we had him in if only I'd have been more interested at the time. There are a lot of really nice, well balanced sheltie breeders out there from what I've looked at. (Keep in mind we haven't bought a sheltie in 12 years)

Grooming is so-so. A few times a week until shedding season, then you need to really keep up on it. An undercoat rake is amazing. Socialization is key, many shelties can be extremely shy. Must be socialized since day 1 and will still be naturally wary around strangers.

All my shelties have been smart and very biddable and willing to work with their owners. They're sweet dogs and a lot more selective in who they like. You have to earn a sheltie's affection. They also bark a lot, fyi.

As far as papillons go... they're amazing. As far as personal experience goes, I think the papillons tend to actually be more drivey and intelligent than the shelties- at least mine are. Paps are brilliant little guys, fast, love to work with their owners. They're a much more clingy dog. Absolutely love people- most seem to love everyone. Really just goofballs and clowns with probably the most character of any dogs I've seen. Don't let their size fool you, they sure don't think of themselves as small. My male pap is probably one of the most hyperactive dogs I've ever met. He ran my uncle's jrt into the ground the other day. (This is a farm dog keep in mind) He's crazy, but it's a good kind of crazy. You can easily channel that energy into something productive. My female is calmer and less outgoing than he is.

Paps and children can work out well, it really depends mostly on the child. My sister was 6 years old when we got our first papillon and she is amazing with them. If a child was brought up knowing how to behave around dogs and taught how to handle little dogs, it can really work well. Also, I know a lot of people that have big dogs and paps and they work well together too- you just have to know the big dogs and supervise as usual.

Corgi.

Soft, is not a common JRT trait. The hunting lines tend to be a lot 'harder' Kaiden is softer than I like, but not really soft compared to say Goldens or some other retrievers. Dekka is as hard as they come. (her mother was like that)

My son, 6 years old, competed with Kaiden this summer in AAC (our vers of USDAA for you Americans reading this thread) and did well. He now wants to work with Scandal. Kaiden is in Masters/advanced level in agility, is one leg away from his CDX, and knows most of the stuff for utility. We haven't done any obed in ages, but for the heck of it entered a rally trial a few weeks ago. Kaiden and Dekka both got their MCLRN titles.

JRTs are 'harder' dogs to train is some ways. They can learn in one repitition, for good or bad. They are very drivey dogs, and this can be a good thing, but they can also have control issues (like high drive BC) I have to be careful what I ask Dekka to do (I have quite a few OMG moments where I thought I had hurt my dog in agility, as she did exactly what I asked)

Around here you see lots of JRTs in agility. One thing is if you want to compete CKC/AKC stay away from the JRTs as they are not CKC/AKC registrable. The PRTs that are.. well no comment. But if you want to do Rally, and non kennel club agility, its pretty hard to beat a good JRT.

Hi;
I am not sure what you mean by go to ground type Jrts, considering that there is no quarry in the west to hunt Jrts too.
Therefore most of the breeders out there don't work (hunt) their jrts unless they travel or import from someone who does.
There is an excellent breeder of working/performance jrts in Manitoba. I would be very surprised if her dogs were soft or tender.
Depending on the Jrt they can be excellent with children, it just depends on the child and the dog. And since are experienced you really shouldn't have a problem.

If you want the contact info for the breeder let me know, or contact me in two years......I expect to have a litter then. Bred for working and performance while not compromzing on temperament or health issues........

Lynn

My concern with the pap is my border collie and golden now tend to 'herd' (yes, the golden does run in and nip) so I'd be concerned about that small of a dog with them being slightly insane about it.

Sheltie coat, I'd assume would be a lot like my old border collies. I used to have a roomie who had shelties, however hers never got groomed but shaved at the groomers once a year. I know they bark! Seeing as I work at a boarding kennel that runs much like a dog daycare, socilaization with other dogs would not be a concern. We were talking the other day about how all our young dogs from here on in need to go out with different dogs for the day here and there. Storee does and has been pretty good about other dogs as a result.

I like the idea of a JRT if it was CKC papered. The go to ground here is set up tests mostly from what I've seen. I know of one 'breeder' but she has a male that well, no comment. The only other one I've seen doing much has a horrible temperment, too terrier for me, but then again knowing the home, well, again no comment. We've had a few in for boarding that are quite soft and shy but I'm guessing they are in a situation where they never leave the house either.

As for corgi.... well I would have reservations on them as well. Again could be the people but only one I've seen that really worked well, the rest were shut down types. And my border collie again. He has issues with corgis so I don't know how he'd do with one in the house, might be fine though.

Lana

My sheltie's coat was way different then my current Border Collies' coats. The boys are very much hose em off and they are good to go. My Sheltie required a ton of grooming.

There is no such beast. They are now PRTs and are in many cases a very different animal. The PRTs that I have met are much softer, and less drivey. I have only met one PRT owner who hunts his dog (and he doesn't breed, he just hunts the one dog) The JRT is the 'working' strain that is true to its heritage, the PRTs are the people who wanted to play in the kennel club breed ring, which is against what every JRT club stands for. (they do show them in conf classes, just only at specialties with judges who really understand what a JRT is bred to do)

My old border had a very thick, heavy coat, much like a pom's or a show sheltie. But it didn't tend to mat, apart from the ears if he was really neglected, but I usually thinned them out a bit and kept up with brushing. Had to strip him a few times as he would get dry skin issues and the skin would just be trapped.

My young border collie has a wash and wear coat though, very different and never mats apart from the ears if they ever get that bad.

All three are due for a groom job, might sneak them in this weekend if it's quiet....

Lana

Swedish Valhund

http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=99&BreedCode=SEV

Dekka, does the CKC do anything like the AKC's ILPing?

Yep.. but 2 issues. Any good JRT breeder isn't going to sell a dog knowingly to a person who will do that. (I have been asked about it) And PRTs are 12 to 15 inches. JRTs can be 10-15 inches. That might or might not be an issue. NOT that I would ever want to, I couldn't with Dekka as she is only 11 inches tall.

Staffordshire Bull Terrier, probably. If I were ever to get anything other than my APBTs, that is. The ones I've seen seem to be incredibly versatile little athletes. There are several of them on the UKC Superdog list.

Unless BSL is defeated here (which I still do have hope for) anything classes as a pitbull can be problematic in Ontario, parts of Alberta and they are talking about Quebec.

So if the dog gets good at agility.. and the Regionals are held somewhere with BSL.. You can't go.. Or it's held somewhere okay, you make it to nationals and then can't go because it's somewhere with BSL.

Ultimate in depressing for many competitors last year.. AAC National was in Ontario, so there were dogs that couldn't participate sadly.

Shouldn't be ones first concern on picking a breed.. but it may be something to consider up here depending upon where you want to go in the future of sports with it. I'm sure other venues here have similar issues, but I'm more active in agility than anything else.

Sheltie grooming also depends a lot on how correct your dog's coat is. Trey's got a harsh outer coat and a thick undercoat which is more correct. he is so hard to give a bath because it takes so long for the water to reach his skin. And then it takes forever to dry once you do get him soaked. Nikki's hair is shorter and finer and dries faster, but it also tangles easily. When they blow their coat twice a year, you get these hairball tumbleweeds everywhere, lol.

Paps are a much easier breed to groom as they have no undercoat. Makes life much easier.

I'd just really think about what type of dog you want to work with. Terriers and herders are two very different personalities. You're going to be living with this dog more than training with it, most likely so I'd just go for the breed that fits better with my lifestyle.

Not that I'm not biased or anythig, but... I'd probably get a sheltie if I were in your situation.

Please do not buy into the "mini" Aussie thing...there are plenty of smaller standard sized (and appropriately health tested) Aussies out there to pretty well fit anyone's needs. The females tend to be much smaller than the males anyway; I believe Sawyer's sister was only around 40-ish pounds or so. (they're both rescued strays, so I don't know her well) He's a smaller male at 50lbs and 21".

Otherwise an Aussie would probably fit with what you're looking for.

I wouldn't get a Mini Aussie either. An old friend just recently was given one who the owners were going to put to sleep. She's a 7 month old bundle of crazy and is lovely but I've met several others who were not very pleasant. Which is sad because I personally find Aussies to be wonderful dogs.

As stated earlier figure out what type of dog will fit your lifestyle more. Herders and terriers aren't a like. Terriers can be great for you or a total nightmare and the same goes for the herding breeds. I'm going to say Sheltie, but that's probably due to growing up with one.

I agree about not looking into the Mini Aussies.

I think a Sheltie would be very good for your son and they would be great for agility, rally, obedience, etc.
Lovely little dogs.

Also like PWC suggested, a corgi. Love Corgis.

Working line Aussies tend to be smaller than thier show line cousins too. My boy is 21ish inches at the shoulder and 32.7 pounds. (He got weighed today) He just turned a year, but I can't see him getting too much heavier either. Granted Django is a shelter dog, but he orginally came from a farm and I'm pretty sure that his family worked. I've met several farm Aussies and they are similar in size to my boy.