Proper use of a shock collar

Do to the fact that I have noticed alot of shock collar threads recently I thought I woudl post my OPNION on it.

I think they are grate. I say get one the right size, strap it to yourself and when you dog messes up mash the button. This should remind you to get your dog what it needs.

All kidding aside I want to make make my serious opnion known. And I want feed back too.

There are and extreamly rare number of cases when a shock collar is the proper training tool. In order to determin if it is correct I think you should mesure the damage of your dogs unwanted behavior to the damage of the collar. If the unwanted behavior is so dangerious to the health of the dog and there is no other way then you might concider the shock collar.

let me list some example when not to use the collar:
dog barking
jumping
mounting
mouthing
or any other behavior that has no ill effect on the dog, but you don't like.
Also the collar shold not be used in circumstances where there is onther option. Say your dog bites people when they com in the house. This is a serious problem, but a better answere is to put the dog in a confined area until it comes down. Or give it something to play with instead. Beter yet leash your dog and keep it ticght so it can greet the new people but not bite. Always prias proper behavior

When do I consider it ok? Well if there is no other option and the saftey of the dog is at stake. Shock colars have some prety gigantic side effects but if the alternive is death or serious injury then go ahead. Always see a trainer first though. The session are cheap compaired to the well beeing of the dog. The decision to use a shock collar is a HIGE one and it WILL alter you dog's mood and behavior. Also you doo not treet the underlieing cause of the problem. I can not think of a good example ATM, but if the choice is between the shock collar and injury to the dog do to a behavior that you can not stop otherwise then I am ok with it. Just remember the color is a way to say NO! you still must say good boy/girl every time some right is done. And also use it only for the perscribed behavior. Some examples of poor usage would be:
A dog running into trafic: solution, get a leash.
A dog diggin at on open wound: solution, thoes cone collars look funny but should work.
A dog going crazy in the crate: theres a much bigger problem here a shock collar will make it worse: solution; no crate, if you seek confinment try the bathroom or anywhere with tile floors.
Dog pulling in a damaging way on a leash (tugging so much as to bruise the skin) : again there is a lower reason for this, a shock color would not be liklly to help: solution; a choker collar is worth a try (but becareful), Aslo more constant communication between you and your dog while on the lease would be better.

Always always always, I encourage you to get to a trainer/behavior specialist FIRST and use the collar only as a last resort.

I think shock collars should also shock the button masher so that they would use it as little as possibal. I also think you should have to take training before you can buy one.

May I add on with the pulling, a gentle leader can be a really effective tool.

yeah I forgot thoes, they pull your dogs head down in a safe way so it can't pull as effectivly. I heard they are grate. Also there are harnesses that can stop the bruising while you try a diffrent positive training method.

Could you please go back and run spell check on that? I'm not quite sure what you're saying in certain parts and I want to be crystal-clear in my comprehension before I reply to the post itself.

WARNING OPINION INCOMING

Do to the fact that I have noticed a lot of shock collar threads recently I thought I would post my OPINION on it.

I think they are grate. I say get one the right size, strap it to yourself and when you dog messes up mash the button. This should remind you to get your dog what it needs.

All kidding aside I want to make make my serious opinion known. And I want feed back too.

There are and extremely rare number of cases when a shock collar is the proper training tool. In order to determin if it is correct I think you should measure the damage of your dogs unwanted behavior to the damage of the collar. If the unwanted behavior is so dangerous to the health of the dog and there is no other way then you might concider the shock collar.

let me list some example when not to use the collar:
dog barking
jumping
mounting
mouthing
or any other behavior that has no ill effect on the dog, but you don't like.
Also the collar should not be used in circumstances where there is another option. Say your dog bites people when they com in the house. This is a serious problem, but a better answere is to put the dog in a confined area until it comes down. Or give it something to play with instead. Better yet leash your dog and keep it tight so it can greet the new people but not bite. Always praise proper behavior

When do I consider it OK? Well if there is no other option and the safety of the dog is at stake. Shock collars have some pretty gigantic side effects but if the alternative is death or serious injury then go ahead. Always see a trainer first though. The session are cheap compaired to the well being of the dog. The decision to use a shock collar is a HUGE one and it WILL alter you dog's mood and behavior. Also you do not treat the underling cause of the problem. I can not think of a good example ATM, but if the choice is between the shock collar and injury to the dog do to a behavior that you can not stop otherwise then I am OK with it. Just remember the color is a way to say NO! you still must say good boy/girl every time some right is done. And also use it only for the perscribed behavior. Some examples of poor usage would be:
A dog running into traffic: solution, get a leash.
A dog diggin at on open wound: solution, those cone collars look funny but should work.
A dog going crazy in the crate: theres a much bigger problem here a shock collar will make it worse: solution; no crate, if you seek confinement try the bathroom or anywhere with tile floors.
Dog pulling in a damaging way on a leash (tugging so much as to bruise the skin) : again there is a lower reason for this, a shock color would not be likely to help: solution; a choker collar is worth a try (but be careful), As lo more constant communication between you and your dog while on the lease would be better.

Always always always, I encourage you to get to a trainer/behavior specialist FIRST and use the collar only as a last resort.

I think shock collars should also shock the button masher so that they would use it as little as possible. I also think you should have to take training before you can buy one.

If you can't come up with a good example of when to use a shock collar, then why post something that says "proper use of a shock collar"?

So far, I've only ever heard of one half-decent use for a shock collar and that was teaching a dog to stay away from the back end of a horse on it's "own".

Related, sort of. A new client just brought in her 5 month old Bulldog pup, cute as can be. I made mention of the fact that we offer training classes if she was interested and she replied "Oh, he's already trained. I sent him off to a friend of mine for three weeks for training."

Then she pulls out a shock collar and straps it on him. I play stupid and go "what's that for?" She replies "Oh, this is a shock collar. Have you ever heard of them?" To which I replied "Yes I have and I think they're totally unnecessary" and walked away before I could say anything else and get myself in trouble.

I use an electronic training collar on Ronin, for recall reinforcement only. Keep in mind this is a very hard, stoic dog that has no interest in treats or toys.

Both of my dogs have learned sit, stay, the foundations of the recall, retrieves, drop it/leave it, crate, etc. with praise and treats. I don't train with the ecollar, I proof with it, and only on recall. No amount of happy voices or snausages will call off these dogs from a chase, but they both repsect the ecollar. Ilsa doesn't need it anymore, she comes when called - immediately and purposefully - without a collar at all. It has made her recall rock solid.

Ronin is actually blissfully happy when he sees the ecollar come out - it means he gets some one-on-one, offleash time with me. The crazy boy starts yipping and jumping around, twirling in circles and wagging his stumpy tail as fast as possible. He LOVES what the ecollar means.

But I hardly ever recommend it to anyone, unless they have proven to be responsible and are willing to learn how to use it correctly - and use it on a very limited basis. It's a very dangerous tool in irresponsible hands.

I can see the use of an e-collar in proofing commands like the recall, but honestly I don't know if I'd ever use one. All of my dogs have some interest in treats and toys, and that's enough for me to create a good recall.

Mostly because I think that there must be some proper use for one. I was hoping that some f the posters here could come up with good examples. I do think the proper use is when the dogs health and well-being is in danger by it's actions then by the collar. I simply have never run across such a case. The staying away from the kicking side of a horse might be a good example. If the dog is to be some kind of herding dog and must be arround horses, then I am not sure how you would train a dog to stay at the sides or front, being at the rear could get the dog killed if the horse decides to buck. Not sure thats the best example though, wouldn't the dog be more likely to just stay totaly away from the horse then at a pituclar side? Can anyone else think of any others?

As for the title, I want the thread to progress in that direction. I have already stated that my opnion is that there is a proper usage when the danger to the dog is greater by the activity then the use of the collar. There may be other examples. But this is the one that I know of/am ok with. I also prefix this as opnion because I have never used one and have never even concidered it with any of my pets. I have seen others use it (incorrectly in my opnion like the lady & pup you mentoned), but with everyone screeming (and rightfully so in every case I have seen on the fourms) Don't use it, I thought I would try to create a thread that would show when it is acceptable and how it should be done.

Unfortunatly even good ole' google doesn't have many examples of "good" usage of these devices. was hoping maybe if a list of things that fit this profile were stated a person wantin tp use it could go "is my dog in one of these categories?"

See in this case i do not have a problem with the ecollar. Ronin gets to run around and saftey is maintained. The alternitive is not running around (because there is no way to do positive re-enforment if the dog doesn't like treats/food/toys and values the running room more then the attention at the moment) or saftey concerns like the dog running off or getting hit by a car etc. Again I want to state that you should not buy a ecollar with out some proper training for your self. (in this example it is used as a refinement tool for an already learned behavior and provides a saftey net for the dog. i can not think of a better use)

When I talk about the ecollar, I'm only referring to its use in recall proofing. None of my dogs have presented any need for it other than for this specific purpose.

IMO, for an ecollar to be effective and not a traumatic experience for the dog, the dog needs to be very devoted to its owner already. The dog also needs to be one that thrives with cut and dry answers to problems - no grey areas. In addition, the collar needs to be used correctly, and in moderation. I was told to never activate the collar more than three times during a training session - after three, it's time to stop.

Ronin is one such dog. He's insanely attached to me. He also needs clear answers, and clear directions. Uncertainty makes him extremely uncomfortable.

Don't ever decide to get one based on online discussion forums. Talk to a good trainer before considering one, and talk to an expert to find out exactly which collar to buy, which one is sited for your dog. Also, just a personal note - if you're going to get one, get a GOOD one. I have a higher end SportDOG collar, and I love it. It's well designed and finely tuned, so I can use exactly the strength and duration of correction that Ronin needs... the cheaper collars are mostly guesswork and are pretty inconsistent.

PS - Ronin hasn't needed a correction in recall in over a month, wearing any type of collar. He's not collar-wise, becuase he was trained correctly.

Oakley has a shock collar. While I think it can be argued that had he gone to a home with a VERY experienced trainer, he may not of had to have one, this is irrelevant, cause we werent experienced, and the woman we adopted him from neglected to tell us about his problems.

We tried the gentle leader...worked fine until he saw a squirrel/rabbit/dog/person...he would then freak out, start biting at the leash, jumping, twisting, doing ANYTHING to try and get free. A few times, when he saw a lawn mower (he likes to chase them...) he would turn his head back, real fast, with no warning and nip our thighs.

During his little 'outbursts' everything but what he was focused on was ignored...food, toys, everything. It was like nothing else existed except what he wanted at that moment.

We hired an Animal Behaviorist who has trained some crazy amount of dogs...like 15000 or something nuts. He "diagnosed" Oakley as having 'seizures' of a sort. Basically when he would get excited past a certain threshold, he would lose it, and we risked him biting someone, or one of us bad one day (luckily he has really good bite inhibition). The sessions were NOT cheap by the way...then again, Oakley lived with the trainer for a month. we paid about $3600 to get him trained. The alternative was sending him back to a shelter, where he would be euthanized for sure.

Oakley was taught to control his 'excitement', and is now able to walk past a bunny (his absolute FAVORITE thing to chase) without giving it a second glance. We walk him off leash though, so he usually gets to chase 'em anyways...but only after he has proven that his focus is not on the bunny...and he doesnt get to every time obviously.

I do think that there could have been another way, but Oakley is a complete BRAT. His trainer said Oakley was one of the most attitude-y/bratty dogs he has EVER worked with (he didnt mean it meanly...he actualy LOVED Oakley cause of this...cause he made things interesting, lol). My brother, who is his "owner" is very passive, and not good at taking control...and my whole family is kinda like that towards Oakley as well...and like i said before...since we were NOT made aware of Oakley's dominance/issues, it was too late to do anything (other than send him to his death...)

What i want to know is what these "gigantic side effects" are...

Oakley LOVES his collar. You should he his tail when we go to put it on him...he starts jumping around like a nutcase, getting all excited, cause he associates it with fun times.

The way Oakley was trained was that it is in his OWN hands (or should i say paws...) whether or not he gets shocked. The trainer described it as our commands were warnings to him, letting him know how to avoid the coming shock, that only we, as humans, can see. If he follows our orders, he avoids the shock...if not...he doesnt. Now this only applies to a certain few commands. Our trainer made lists for us for which commands/situations we were allowed to use a shock for, and which ones we werent.
Oakley trusts us to "tell him" how to avoid getting shocked. He knows perfectly well he can choose to obey, or to ignore. Its not like we randomly shock him without warning...

Anyways....that was long...i hope you read it, lol!

EDIT: Just want to add...Oakley wears his collar every day...it only comes off during the night (well, now that it has been awhile since he was trained, he wears it less)...he gets shocked maybe once every 3 weeks...if not less.

maybe it should read when improperly used .. gigantic side effects....

Some examples are just being scared of everything, being scared in general, Others can fill you in as well. As for side efects during proper usage they are minor to nil. Sorry about that confusion.

so do you 'approve' of my use of it??

I think I fixed your post for you.

I think the best use is still big running pointers and setters. In some parts of the country people (field trialers) have their dogs out over a mile a way looking for birds.

Treats and toys are not going to work where the dog can barely see you, never mind hear you!

In most trialing venues I am aware of, e-collars are not allowed during the trial. Maybe I am thinking of different ones though?

Its the training where it matters... even here, with shorter range dogs, it can be very hard to express to your dog that you don't want it running over the road or chasing the deer when it is 40 yards away.

There is always pressure to get hunting or trialing dogs out as fast as possible, so people do take some shortcuts. It doesn't seem to harm them if used right, so I try and stay as neutral as possible

I just posted my experience with an e-collar down under the training threads.

Dreeza, in all honesty, your post does disturb me some. First of all, I don't know of any "behaviorist" (and I use that term as a trained behaviorist with a PhD in behaviorism - as it should be, in my opinion) who would use a shock collar as the basis for training a dog. And then for him to say your dog is having seizures and yet SHOCK is the method to train? That just seems completely wrong. And it sounds like shock is used purely as a punishment and not in a way that encourages learning (such as the negative reinforcement method I described in my post in the training section).

You describe a dog with some huge problems but it sounds like no one truly tried any other training method .. he went directly to a trainer who chose to use shock. Yes, I'm sure he learned control - who wouldn't, in order to avoid shock? But the fact that you have to put the collar on him every day in order to maintain that control tells me that he is only responding to the collar and is not truly trained. A trained dog should not have to continue to wear a corrective device all the time. He hasn't been trained to do anything but avoid the correction.

I'm sure, if he has to wear the collar every time before you take him anywhere, that he does react to the collar - the same way my dogs react to me picking up my keys or putting on my shoes. Dogs will react to the signals that they connect with getting to go do things even if those signals are part of a level of correction. It doesn't mean he LIKES the collar. It means he doesn't know any different and to him the shock is a part of his life (sounds kind of pitiful, doesn't it?).

While I do think there are occasional valid reasons for using a corrective collar such as a shock collar, to use it as the basis for training is hugely unfair to a dog. In your case it truly doesn't sound like your dog had any other options offered. As you said, you were inexperienced and you went to someone who told you his training method (shock) was valid even though your dog appeared to have seizures. I'm sorry that you feel you have to continue to use the shock collar on a regular basis .. it can't be pleasant to your dog, especially when used at a level that is highly corrective.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Just as with every 'tool', there is a right way and a wrong way.
Unfortunately, since so many people find shock collars inhumane, there are few people who truly know how to use them correctly.