Tail Docking ?
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Docking tails at 3-5 days of age is humane compared to having to remove the tail at a much older age, that I wouldn't do unless I had to for medical reasons. As a breeder of Reg'd Jrts that do 'work' in the earth, I will not, not dock the tails. It has nothing to do with the showring or what I like. Jrts tails are docked to prevent the dog from breaking the tail when backing up in a tight earth. It has nothing to do with providing us with a 'handle'. It is for the well being of the working dog. I have had people approach me about an up and coming litter, they don't want the tail dock........too bad, they don't get a pup if they insist on an undocked tail....there is no way at 3 days of age, anyone can judge which pup is going to be the 'keeper', therefore all the pups are done. The pups when docked, don't make a peep, there is no bleeding and btw I do the docking right on my diningroom table. We have not had an infection yet, actually of all the breeders that I know, I've never heard of anyone having trouble).
The day that any Gov. stops BYB's, Puppymills, Animal Cruelity, and selling animals in pet stores........I'll consider not docking or removing dews, until then, nope. It's my business and I know that I am NOT causing ANY harm to my dogs on any level. My working dog that also does agility??? His ave. Yards per Second on course? oh about 5.5 to 6.0, he routinely lays down times as fast or faster than BC's, and often gets Best Run, his lack of a full tail doesn't seem to effect his balance. (his tail is about 5 inches long, he stands 13.25 inches)
Just my opinion
Lynn
The day that any Gov. stops BYB's, Puppymills, Animal Cruelity, and selling animals in pet stores........I'll consider not docking or removing dews, until then, nope. It's my business and I know that I am NOT causing ANY harm to my dogs on any level. My working dog that also does agility??? His ave. Yards per Second on course? oh about 5.5 to 6.0, he routinely lays down times as fast or faster than BC's, and often gets Best Run, his lack of a full tail doesn't seem to effect his balance. (his tail is about 5 inches long, he stands 13.25 inches)
Just my opinion
Lynn
I've done hundreds of tail docks & although I agree that their is very little bleeding (thus the main reason of docking so early on), it is a rarity that the pup is quiet. The puppies whine, cry, & some wail. I'm not going to lie & say they don't. And to say they don't feel pain is foolish & goes right up their with the belief that "pit bulls" are different in that they don't feel pain.
However, once the procedure is done & they are back in their comfy basket with the others, they all normally quiet down save for a few whimpers.
And I'm not fussing in any way, but every state has different laws & many have made home docking illegal....................
However, once the procedure is done & they are back in their comfy basket with the others, they all normally quiet down save for a few whimpers.
And I'm not fussing in any way, but every state has different laws & many have made home docking illegal....................
Here's another link ...
http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5080
Does have photo of bloody tailed dog in that thread. If you don't want to read it, here are some quotes.
http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5080
Does have photo of bloody tailed dog in that thread. If you don't want to read it, here are some quotes.
First off, I am right there with you Rye, will be fighting to keep my privallage of docking. The idea that you think docking is acutally harmful to the dogs, if done PROPERLY at the correct age is really beyond me.
The people that are so opposed, have you ever SEEN a litter cropped by a professional vet that knew exactly what they were doing? If so, I highly doubt you can sit here and debate this subject. The puppies scream bloody murder for about a mintue, and then the rest of thier life you( or they) would n't know that anything tramatic happened to them.
Honestly, I want to vomit everytime I see a tailed Rottweiler. Some people are trying to get the AKC standard to call for a tail, and *most* of the Rottie community is against this. How can you add a tail to the standard, what will the lenth of the tail be? What will be considered proper carrage of the tail? What is the correct coat of the tail suppose to be( have seen some tailed Rottweilers who tails didn't look like they matched the rest of the dog).
The government needs to go figure out how to help our soilders in Iraq, the homeless, the dieing, the elderly before they start picking apart weather or not its a good or bad thing to crop/dock. I for one am sick of the government sticking its nose in places it doesnt belong.
Say what you will to this post, after reading all the replies I am very disgusted.
Ryan
The people that are so opposed, have you ever SEEN a litter cropped by a professional vet that knew exactly what they were doing? If so, I highly doubt you can sit here and debate this subject. The puppies scream bloody murder for about a mintue, and then the rest of thier life you( or they) would n't know that anything tramatic happened to them.
Honestly, I want to vomit everytime I see a tailed Rottweiler. Some people are trying to get the AKC standard to call for a tail, and *most* of the Rottie community is against this. How can you add a tail to the standard, what will the lenth of the tail be? What will be considered proper carrage of the tail? What is the correct coat of the tail suppose to be( have seen some tailed Rottweilers who tails didn't look like they matched the rest of the dog).
The government needs to go figure out how to help our soilders in Iraq, the homeless, the dieing, the elderly before they start picking apart weather or not its a good or bad thing to crop/dock. I for one am sick of the government sticking its nose in places it doesnt belong.
Say what you will to this post, after reading all the replies I am very disgusted.
Ryan
Can someone explain a coupel of things to me please.
Those who say speying isnt necessary for health reasons but cropping is. Why are there no more instances of ear infections here (UK) than where cropping is allowed and do your bitches not get Pyometra? I dont understand how one is necessary, in the instance of cropping, and the other a convenience.
Docking will also be banned in the UK this year by the way.
Those who say speying isnt necessary for health reasons but cropping is. Why are there no more instances of ear infections here (UK) than where cropping is allowed and do your bitches not get Pyometra? I dont understand how one is necessary, in the instance of cropping, and the other a convenience.
Docking will also be banned in the UK this year by the way.
taratippy there are more instances-I've heard from people on boards complaining. there is no ear infection database. Apparently they are all like my old vet who said its ok lets do surgery. And from what I have hear the real working dogs still get docked anyway because they do break.
And the number of dogs helped by the free air flow isn't something insanely high-BUT it does help some. Why ruin ot for those it does help?
women get uterine cancer but we don't remove the uterus-you have to rember how small the risk of pyrometra really is-I personally don't know any dog thats had it and I know a lot of dogs-do know of one cat though.
and I am in no way against altering-I think the majority of people need to have it done because they can not handle it-but that doesn't mean its not a serioues surgery or it doesn't make the persons life easier because it sure does.
And this study is apparently not from america
"The Swedish German Pointers Clubs breeding council carried out investigations (interviews and questionnaires) during the late autumn of 1990 and 1991 respectively, regarding the incidence of tail injuries on longtailed German Pointers born in 1989.
In the autumn of 1990 when the dogs were 1 - 1.5 years old, 27% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. The investigated group consisted of 44 litters, 299 individual dogs.
In the autumn of 1991 when the dogs were 2 - 2.5 years old, 35% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. In other words, every third German Pointer with a long tail had suffered from tail injuries. "
http://www.cdb.org/sweden.htm
And the number of dogs helped by the free air flow isn't something insanely high-BUT it does help some. Why ruin ot for those it does help?
women get uterine cancer but we don't remove the uterus-you have to rember how small the risk of pyrometra really is-I personally don't know any dog thats had it and I know a lot of dogs-do know of one cat though.
and I am in no way against altering-I think the majority of people need to have it done because they can not handle it-but that doesn't mean its not a serioues surgery or it doesn't make the persons life easier because it sure does.
And this study is apparently not from america
"The Swedish German Pointers Clubs breeding council carried out investigations (interviews and questionnaires) during the late autumn of 1990 and 1991 respectively, regarding the incidence of tail injuries on longtailed German Pointers born in 1989.
In the autumn of 1990 when the dogs were 1 - 1.5 years old, 27% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. The investigated group consisted of 44 litters, 299 individual dogs.
In the autumn of 1991 when the dogs were 2 - 2.5 years old, 35% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. In other words, every third German Pointer with a long tail had suffered from tail injuries. "
http://www.cdb.org/sweden.htm
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First let me say I think docking should only be done by a vet or trained pro along those lines. I have witnessed one litter of pups being docked years ago......about 20 years ago, and each pup was picked up, snipped, let one 'yipe' and a few little whimpers and placed back with mom who comforted it immediately. That was it, that was all. Never another complaint about it....ever.
I can tell you my boys who were circumsized yelled louder and longer than those puppies, and every time it was cleaned there after! Some parents circumsize, some don't. The ones who don't argue: no medical reasons make it necessary, the ones who do argue: religion or cleanliness, who's right????
When they take away rights to dock & crop, what's next on the list???
Do you have a son?? Is he 'natural' or 'docked'????????????
I can tell you my boys who were circumsized yelled louder and longer than those puppies, and every time it was cleaned there after! Some parents circumsize, some don't. The ones who don't argue: no medical reasons make it necessary, the ones who do argue: religion or cleanliness, who's right????
When they take away rights to dock & crop, what's next on the list???
Do you have a son?? Is he 'natural' or 'docked'????????????
Rights to take away body parts...I can't believe that's what is being stated by some.
"I HAVE THE RIGHT to shave off part of my dogs' ears and cut their tails off because of what MIGHT happen, but mainly because it just looks nice, and it's a free country."
What's next? Honestly.
This thread was supposed to be informative, but it can't be, because of opposing viewpoints that go from two extremes and don't seem to land in the middle.
Hopefully the OP read through, got the information they needed, etc.
"I HAVE THE RIGHT to shave off part of my dogs' ears and cut their tails off because of what MIGHT happen, but mainly because it just looks nice, and it's a free country."
What's next? Honestly.
This thread was supposed to be informative, but it can't be, because of opposing viewpoints that go from two extremes and don't seem to land in the middle.
Hopefully the OP read through, got the information they needed, etc.
Obviously you are looking simply at this one issue and not the big picture.
I'm not in full support of cropping and docking. Honestly I don't care either way. But, if you outlaw things like tail docking, you're giving the government the go-ahead to outlaw other things. You are giving them poorly-asserted control over how we breed and raise our dogs.
Have you not noticed that many of the countries that have banned docking/cropping have also banned Pit Bulls and other "high risk" breeds? Somehow I don't see that as a coincidence. But I digress.
When people push laws like mandatory spay/neuter, no tail docking, no chaining etc, I see that as people giving the government complete control, and I don't want that to happen in the U.S.. I don't LIKE the American government and I do NOT want the morons on Capitol Hill (who can't even SPELL "dog" much less understand someone's reasoning for doing something with their dog) dictating what the people can and can't do with their animals.
To me, it's about more than cropping and docking; it's about the government keeping its filthy nose out of responsible dog owners' business. Instead of targeting responsible owners and breeders, I'd like to see something done about the rampant abuse, the puppymills, the things that TRULY harm the animals and cause them to live a miserable existance.
To be honest, I think a lot of things that people do with dogs are disrespectful to dogs as living, feeling creatures. However, if you look at it, that's how man's relationship with dogs has always been. Humans feed dogs and give them a place to live, and in return many people used the dogs whether they were guardians, shepherds, hunters or retrievers. Now dogs are still used, as companions, as fashion accessories, as broodies in order to make money, as well as being guardians/shepherds/hunters. Also, Dogs get modified like crazy by humans as it is - look at the English Bulldog or the Chihuahua. Dogs get the short end of the stick no matter what. Such is their relationship with humans. Cropping and docking housepets really isn't a huge stretch compared to the history of dogs with humans.
I don't agree with chaining dogs, I don't agree with the majority of the population owning dogs like Pit Bulls, I'm even not in complete agreement with things like ear cropping, but I WILL defend these things when outlawing them is proposed, because the more government involvement there is, the harder it will be to own dogs in the future. I love these animals more than any other, and I want them around forever.
I think Grammy is right, this thread will never end and it's gotten too far away from the original question. I'll bow out, my apologies to the OP.
I'm not in full support of cropping and docking. Honestly I don't care either way. But, if you outlaw things like tail docking, you're giving the government the go-ahead to outlaw other things. You are giving them poorly-asserted control over how we breed and raise our dogs.
Have you not noticed that many of the countries that have banned docking/cropping have also banned Pit Bulls and other "high risk" breeds? Somehow I don't see that as a coincidence. But I digress.
When people push laws like mandatory spay/neuter, no tail docking, no chaining etc, I see that as people giving the government complete control, and I don't want that to happen in the U.S.. I don't LIKE the American government and I do NOT want the morons on Capitol Hill (who can't even SPELL "dog" much less understand someone's reasoning for doing something with their dog) dictating what the people can and can't do with their animals.
To me, it's about more than cropping and docking; it's about the government keeping its filthy nose out of responsible dog owners' business. Instead of targeting responsible owners and breeders, I'd like to see something done about the rampant abuse, the puppymills, the things that TRULY harm the animals and cause them to live a miserable existance.
To be honest, I think a lot of things that people do with dogs are disrespectful to dogs as living, feeling creatures. However, if you look at it, that's how man's relationship with dogs has always been. Humans feed dogs and give them a place to live, and in return many people used the dogs whether they were guardians, shepherds, hunters or retrievers. Now dogs are still used, as companions, as fashion accessories, as broodies in order to make money, as well as being guardians/shepherds/hunters. Also, Dogs get modified like crazy by humans as it is - look at the English Bulldog or the Chihuahua. Dogs get the short end of the stick no matter what. Such is their relationship with humans. Cropping and docking housepets really isn't a huge stretch compared to the history of dogs with humans.
I don't agree with chaining dogs, I don't agree with the majority of the population owning dogs like Pit Bulls, I'm even not in complete agreement with things like ear cropping, but I WILL defend these things when outlawing them is proposed, because the more government involvement there is, the harder it will be to own dogs in the future. I love these animals more than any other, and I want them around forever.
I think Grammy is right, this thread will never end and it's gotten too far away from the original question. I'll bow out, my apologies to the OP.
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