Hi all
Having spent quite some time lately reading the various dog boards, I find myself disturbed by some of the rigid thinking and rude comment from certain individuals on the subject of the ancient and continued art of mixing breeds. I do understand the motivation, but the thinking seems to be quite distorted in some cases. Because Chazhound seems more balanced and polite (mostly!), I feel safest to post my thoughts about it here. (BTW, I am not breeder so have no vested interest; I have owned a beautiful pedigree GSD in the past and plan to own a beautiful either a pedigree or mixed-breed little dog some time soon...)
To begin... two key points:
- A "mutt", in common parlance, is usually taken to mean 'the product of multiple, random matings' - the type traditionally created by stray dogs in rubbish tips. This is substantially different from careful, intentional cross-breeding of selected animals in an attempt to produce a particular animal for a particular purpose (hunting, family pets, guidedogs, sniffers, show, etc).
- Almost all current "pedigree" dogs began in exactly this way - intentional cross-breeding of particular animals for a particular purpose. Humans have been doing this forever, and they won't conveniently stop during our lifetimes just to appease the anxieties of few people. (Please see the list at the bottom of this post for the "mutt" background of our beloved "pedigree" pooches!)
Many major kennel clubs understand the above two points perfectly well, and thus have a slow and careful ongoing process for officially recognising new breeds (or crosses) as they are developed. Is it really so much of a stretch for pedigree owners/breeders to understand this aswell?
Here's a human analogy, to help illustrate the dubious thinking that's currently being bandied around in the name of 'ethics':
If 6 (1 female and 5 male) uneducated, unemployed humans, of varied races and dodgy temperaments, get together randomly and produce 6 'pure' and 'mixed breed' children, we call this "irresponsible". There is a much higher than usual chance that some of these children will be neglected, have behavioural or intellectual problems, and/or end up swelling the ranks of foster homes...
However, if 2 educated, employed, good-natured humans of 2 races get together and carefully raise 3 well-adjusted, healthy 'mixed-breed' children, we simply admire what a good job they've done and how unusually good-looking their well-behaved children are. How absurd it would be to say to them instead, "Well if all you wanted were mutts you should have gone to the foster home and got a few 8-12 year olds - there are loads of them. You were ripped off if you paid thousands for maternity costs and kindergarten for those... and what are a few behavioural problems anyway? It was irresponsible and selfish of you to have your own children."
The obvious offensiveness of this kind of thinking when applied to humans starkly reveals how daft it is when applied to any other animal. The crime is not the 'race' or 'breed'; the crime is 'bad behaviour' in the form of irresponsible reproduction. I can't believe that we, as a human race, still haven't quite collectively grasped this concept yet, and keep making this same error of generalised thinking. Here are some more ideas:
Crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in a dangerous animal.
Non-crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in reliably good-natured, safe animals.
Crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which detract from the wellbeing of the purchaser.
Non-crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which add to the wellbeing of the purchaser.
Crime = Being one of the 5% of men who commit acts of violence (of which 98% are carried out by men).
Non-crime = Being a man...who is one of the 95% of men who do not commit acts of violence.
Crime = Uncaring 'puppy mill' breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs so as to get cute puppies out to the pet market as fast as possible, without concern for where they end up, or for their mental and physical health.
Non-crime = Careful breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs, so as to produce mentally and physically healthy, cute puppies for caring, discerning pet owners or another purpose.
I'll say it again: The crime is the behaviour. Generalising is irritatingly ignorant, but most importantly it causes the point to be missed and therefore the problem to remain unsolved. If we punish the wrong thing - like 'being a man', or 'mixed race', or 'charging for a product' - we fail to solve the real problem, which is nearly always just 'bad behaviour by certain individuals'.
And now, for the interest of the 'anti-mutt brigade', here are the mixed-breed heritages of some of our "pedigree mutts"! :
(In fact, you can technically 'make your own pedigree' from the 'recipe' in some cases!)
Affenpinscher: Various working terriers
Airedale Terrier: Old English Brokenhaired Terrier + Otterhound + various other terrier breeds
American Eskimo Dog: From German Spitz
American Water Spaniel: From Irish Water Spaniel
Australian Silky: Australian Terrier + Yorkshire Terrier-type dogs brought by convicts + later addition of Skye Terrier + Dandie Dinmont
Beagle: Harrier + hounds of ancient England
Bedlington terrier: Whippet + Otterhound + Dandie Dinmont
Bernese Mountain Dog: Tibetan Mastiff + local sheepdogs
Bichon Frise: Poodle + Barbet Water Spaniel.
Borzoi: Arabian Greyhound/Gazelle Hound + Longhaired Russian Sheepdog OR Asian greyhounds + Russian indigenous dogs
Boston Terrier: English Bulldog + White English Terrier.
Boxer: Danziger + Brabanter Bullenbeisser (in turn from Mastiffs) + other Bavarian breeds.
Bull Mastiff: English Mastiff + Bulldog
Bull Terrier: Bulldog + White English Terrier
Chow Chow: Spitz descent.
Clumber spaniel: Basset Hound + Alpine Spaniel.
Doberman: Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier.
(Bred by Herr Louis Dobermann, a tax collector, to protect himself on his rounds. My, things haven't changed much...Doberlawyers.)
Field Spaniel: English Cocker Spaniel + English Springer Spaniel
Flatcoated Retriever: Newfoundland + Labrador Retriever
German Shorthaired Pointer: Bloodhound + Spanish Pointer or English Foxhound
Golden Retriever: Yellow Retriever or Flat-coated Retriever + Tweed Water Spaniel + later addition of Newfoundland
Great Dane: Mastiff + Greyhound
Great Pyrenees: Italian Maremma + Slovakian Kuvac + Hungarian Kuvasz + Turkish Karabash
Harrier: Beagle + St. Hubert hounds
Havanese: Water Spaniel + Poodle + Portuguese Water Dog
Irish Setter: Old Spanish Pointer + Setting spaniels + early Scottish setters
Leonberger: Newfoundland + St. Bernard + Great Pyrenees.
Miniature schnauzer: Giant and Standard Schnauzers + Affenpinscher + Miniature Pinscher
Old English Sheepdog: Briard + Bearded Collie + Russian Owtchar
Olde English Bulldogge: English Bulldog + American Bulldog + Bull Mastiff + American Pit Bull Terrier
Papillon: From Spanish Dwarf Spaniel +...
Pointer: Foxhound + Greyhound + Bloodhound.
Pomeranian: From a north German sheepdog. (When introduced to the UK it was large and white, up to 13 kg!)
Pug: From Mastiffs.
Rhodesian Ridgeback: Hottentot Ridged Dog + Bloodhound + Greyhound.
Rottweiler: Various local shepherds’ dogs + a Mastiff-like dog.
Rough Collie: Various Scottish and Irish herding and farm dogs + later addition of Russian Borzoi
Saint Bernard: From Molossian Mastiff
Shetland Sheepdog: Rough Collies + various dogs of Scottish Shetland Islands
Shih Tzu: Lhasa Apso + Pekingese or Chinese Pug.
Smooth Fox Terrier: Smooth Coated Black & Tan Terrier + Bull Terrier + Greyhound + Beagle
Softcoated Wheaten Terrier: Kerry Blue Terrier + Irish Terrier
Standard schnauzer: Beaver dog + Rough Coated Ratting dog or Shepherd
Whippet: Terrier + Greyhound
Yorkshire Terrier: English Black & Tan + Skye Terrier + Maltese.
[etc!!]
(I am now going to stand behind my Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier and see what happens... )
Delisay
Having spent quite some time lately reading the various dog boards, I find myself disturbed by some of the rigid thinking and rude comment from certain individuals on the subject of the ancient and continued art of mixing breeds. I do understand the motivation, but the thinking seems to be quite distorted in some cases. Because Chazhound seems more balanced and polite (mostly!), I feel safest to post my thoughts about it here. (BTW, I am not breeder so have no vested interest; I have owned a beautiful pedigree GSD in the past and plan to own a beautiful either a pedigree or mixed-breed little dog some time soon...)
To begin... two key points:
- A "mutt", in common parlance, is usually taken to mean 'the product of multiple, random matings' - the type traditionally created by stray dogs in rubbish tips. This is substantially different from careful, intentional cross-breeding of selected animals in an attempt to produce a particular animal for a particular purpose (hunting, family pets, guidedogs, sniffers, show, etc).
- Almost all current "pedigree" dogs began in exactly this way - intentional cross-breeding of particular animals for a particular purpose. Humans have been doing this forever, and they won't conveniently stop during our lifetimes just to appease the anxieties of few people. (Please see the list at the bottom of this post for the "mutt" background of our beloved "pedigree" pooches!)
Many major kennel clubs understand the above two points perfectly well, and thus have a slow and careful ongoing process for officially recognising new breeds (or crosses) as they are developed. Is it really so much of a stretch for pedigree owners/breeders to understand this aswell?
Here's a human analogy, to help illustrate the dubious thinking that's currently being bandied around in the name of 'ethics':
If 6 (1 female and 5 male) uneducated, unemployed humans, of varied races and dodgy temperaments, get together randomly and produce 6 'pure' and 'mixed breed' children, we call this "irresponsible". There is a much higher than usual chance that some of these children will be neglected, have behavioural or intellectual problems, and/or end up swelling the ranks of foster homes...
However, if 2 educated, employed, good-natured humans of 2 races get together and carefully raise 3 well-adjusted, healthy 'mixed-breed' children, we simply admire what a good job they've done and how unusually good-looking their well-behaved children are. How absurd it would be to say to them instead, "Well if all you wanted were mutts you should have gone to the foster home and got a few 8-12 year olds - there are loads of them. You were ripped off if you paid thousands for maternity costs and kindergarten for those... and what are a few behavioural problems anyway? It was irresponsible and selfish of you to have your own children."
The obvious offensiveness of this kind of thinking when applied to humans starkly reveals how daft it is when applied to any other animal. The crime is not the 'race' or 'breed'; the crime is 'bad behaviour' in the form of irresponsible reproduction. I can't believe that we, as a human race, still haven't quite collectively grasped this concept yet, and keep making this same error of generalised thinking. Here are some more ideas:
Crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in a dangerous animal.
Non-crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in reliably good-natured, safe animals.
Crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which detract from the wellbeing of the purchaser.
Non-crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which add to the wellbeing of the purchaser.
Crime = Being one of the 5% of men who commit acts of violence (of which 98% are carried out by men).
Non-crime = Being a man...who is one of the 95% of men who do not commit acts of violence.
Crime = Uncaring 'puppy mill' breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs so as to get cute puppies out to the pet market as fast as possible, without concern for where they end up, or for their mental and physical health.
Non-crime = Careful breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs, so as to produce mentally and physically healthy, cute puppies for caring, discerning pet owners or another purpose.
I'll say it again: The crime is the behaviour. Generalising is irritatingly ignorant, but most importantly it causes the point to be missed and therefore the problem to remain unsolved. If we punish the wrong thing - like 'being a man', or 'mixed race', or 'charging for a product' - we fail to solve the real problem, which is nearly always just 'bad behaviour by certain individuals'.
And now, for the interest of the 'anti-mutt brigade', here are the mixed-breed heritages of some of our "pedigree mutts"! :
(In fact, you can technically 'make your own pedigree' from the 'recipe' in some cases!)
Affenpinscher: Various working terriers
Airedale Terrier: Old English Brokenhaired Terrier + Otterhound + various other terrier breeds
American Eskimo Dog: From German Spitz
American Water Spaniel: From Irish Water Spaniel
Australian Silky: Australian Terrier + Yorkshire Terrier-type dogs brought by convicts + later addition of Skye Terrier + Dandie Dinmont
Beagle: Harrier + hounds of ancient England
Bedlington terrier: Whippet + Otterhound + Dandie Dinmont
Bernese Mountain Dog: Tibetan Mastiff + local sheepdogs
Bichon Frise: Poodle + Barbet Water Spaniel.
Borzoi: Arabian Greyhound/Gazelle Hound + Longhaired Russian Sheepdog OR Asian greyhounds + Russian indigenous dogs
Boston Terrier: English Bulldog + White English Terrier.
Boxer: Danziger + Brabanter Bullenbeisser (in turn from Mastiffs) + other Bavarian breeds.
Bull Mastiff: English Mastiff + Bulldog
Bull Terrier: Bulldog + White English Terrier
Chow Chow: Spitz descent.
Clumber spaniel: Basset Hound + Alpine Spaniel.
Doberman: Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier.
(Bred by Herr Louis Dobermann, a tax collector, to protect himself on his rounds. My, things haven't changed much...Doberlawyers.)
Field Spaniel: English Cocker Spaniel + English Springer Spaniel
Flatcoated Retriever: Newfoundland + Labrador Retriever
German Shorthaired Pointer: Bloodhound + Spanish Pointer or English Foxhound
Golden Retriever: Yellow Retriever or Flat-coated Retriever + Tweed Water Spaniel + later addition of Newfoundland
Great Dane: Mastiff + Greyhound
Great Pyrenees: Italian Maremma + Slovakian Kuvac + Hungarian Kuvasz + Turkish Karabash
Harrier: Beagle + St. Hubert hounds
Havanese: Water Spaniel + Poodle + Portuguese Water Dog
Irish Setter: Old Spanish Pointer + Setting spaniels + early Scottish setters
Leonberger: Newfoundland + St. Bernard + Great Pyrenees.
Miniature schnauzer: Giant and Standard Schnauzers + Affenpinscher + Miniature Pinscher
Old English Sheepdog: Briard + Bearded Collie + Russian Owtchar
Olde English Bulldogge: English Bulldog + American Bulldog + Bull Mastiff + American Pit Bull Terrier
Papillon: From Spanish Dwarf Spaniel +...
Pointer: Foxhound + Greyhound + Bloodhound.
Pomeranian: From a north German sheepdog. (When introduced to the UK it was large and white, up to 13 kg!)
Pug: From Mastiffs.
Rhodesian Ridgeback: Hottentot Ridged Dog + Bloodhound + Greyhound.
Rottweiler: Various local shepherds’ dogs + a Mastiff-like dog.
Rough Collie: Various Scottish and Irish herding and farm dogs + later addition of Russian Borzoi
Saint Bernard: From Molossian Mastiff
Shetland Sheepdog: Rough Collies + various dogs of Scottish Shetland Islands
Shih Tzu: Lhasa Apso + Pekingese or Chinese Pug.
Smooth Fox Terrier: Smooth Coated Black & Tan Terrier + Bull Terrier + Greyhound + Beagle
Softcoated Wheaten Terrier: Kerry Blue Terrier + Irish Terrier
Standard schnauzer: Beaver dog + Rough Coated Ratting dog or Shepherd
Whippet: Terrier + Greyhound
Yorkshire Terrier: English Black & Tan + Skye Terrier + Maltese.
[etc!!]
(I am now going to stand behind my Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier and see what happens... )
Delisay