Good places to look at for training certification

Will do.

My 2 cents and then I am going away from this thread...

If I was looking for a trainer, I would much rather have one that had went through a basic course somewhere and had a certification than someone that didnt have anything but experience training their own animals..

Thats like me saying I'm a trainer because I taught Chloe sit, down, and *mostly* stay...

Please let me know what you think of it. I have been reading everything that everyone has to say and taking everything into perspective, but it would also really help me to hear from someone who is currently taking the course. I can't do it until after Christmas as my husband has me signed on to a project of his for the holiday season so that should give you plenty of time to get into it and let me know how you feel about taking it.

Also, I wouldn't mind reading a recommended book if anyone will let me know of good ones to start with. I am sure everyone has different opions on which they like the best, so feel free to express your opinions on them. I really wasn't trying to start anything here, but really you have all given me a lot to think about and I do appreciate all opinions regardless of what my first step will be. I would really appreciate some book recommendations for me to divulge myself in through Christmas and to kind of get me started on some of the knowledge.

bogolove: I will be sure to let you know what I think of the course.
I've also PM'd you just incase this post gets lost in the long thread.

Here is a long list of several books that I thought were excellent and which I think I learned a lot from:

The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Dogs Are From Neptune by Jean Donaldson
Mine! by Jean Donaldson
Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell
Beginning Family Dog Training by Patricia McConnell
How Dogs Learn by Burch & Baily
Exelerated Learning by Pamela Reid
How To Teach a New Dog Old Tricks by Ian Dunbar
Dr. Dunbar's Good Little Dog Book by Ian Dunbar
Before and After Getting Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
Behavior Problems in Dogs by William Campbell
Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff
Canine Body Language: A photographic guide by Brenda Aloff
Dog Language by Roger Abrantes
Outwitting Dogs by Terry Ryan
Coaching People to Train Their Dogs by Terry Ryan
One on One: A dog trainers guide to private training by Nicole Wilde
It's Not the Dogs, It's the People! by Nicole Wilde
So You Want to Be a Dog Trainer by Nicole Wilde
The Domestic Dog by James Serpell
Dogs:A startling new understing by Raymond & Lorna Coopinger
Click for Joy! by Melissa Alexander
How To Speak Dog by Stanely Coren
Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas
Canine Behavior by Bonnie Beaver
Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals by Karen Overall

Patricia McConnell's series of booklets:
How to be the Leader of the Pack
The Cautious Canine
Fiesty Fido
I'll Be Home Soon
Way to Go! How to Houstrain a Dog of any Age
Feeling Outnumbered? How to Manage & Enjoy a Multi-dog Household


Behavior Modification: Principles & Procedures by Raymond Miltenberger (not dog specific but an excellent resource on operant & classical conditioning)

It's also been highly recommended for me to attend as many seminars as I can. So far, there haven't been any in my area and its not affordable for me to travel at this time so I've purchased a few seminars on DVD in the meantime.

I know you didn't ask about videos but I wanted to mention one really great video that I think you could learn a lot about body language from:
Language of Dogs by Sarah Kalnajs

Good luck!

No, you haven't. You still haven't explained how ABC can offer ANYTHING that one cannot learn elsewhere. Seriously, if they've got some secret about dog training stashed away and only paying customers know it, therefor making them better trainers than the rest of us, please say so. Maybe that would justify the price.

All you've explained is that in your opinion it's irresponsible not to be certified. Which is a bias opinion, much like my opinion that you can do perfectly WITHOUT being certified is probably bias.

I honestly think this is partly a cultural difference. I've never been to Canada, I don't know how dog training is done over there, but it seems like having certifaction is more widly expected for trainers. Is this correct? The fact that you imply your clients ask about it all the time, and your vets only referr to trainers who have it makes me think this is true.

And what exactly does it have to do with? Please inform me of what my motive is...because you've lost me.

When did I ever say I knew it all? How would looking into it be admitting defeat? If you've got some tidbits of infromation that would make me go "OH, of course, NOW I see where she's coming from" by all means share it. I'm not opposed to learning more about the program, but the opinion of someone who is currently working for the company (all be it unpaid it seems) is not one that I give much credit to. Of course you'll sing it's praises, that's expected. It's like a telemarketeer that can't stop going on about how wonderful their product is even though that majority of customers would never buy it.

Now now, that's getting close to a personal shot again. Can't we keep those out of the discussion? I know you're offended, but please, if you feel the need to make a point can't you do so withut personal shots? It's possible, honest, if you just try real hard.

Ya know, maybe you're right, maybe this ISN'T about ABC, heck if you want me to say I have no problem with them fine, I'm neutral about ABC, feel better?

Maybe I souldn't have used the word 'worthless' in my first post, I should have known that would get your hackles up. So for being an instigator when I wasn't trying to be one, I'm sorry. That doesn't change the fact that someone can become a great dog trainer without going to a training school. It's not required, it's over priced, and it doesn't offer anything you cannot get else where.

Again, if you are so convinced that these training schools offer something special that isn't available anywhere else, SAY SO. Otherwise you're just spouting praise for company you work for and I'm done reading it.

Yes, you've told me what they cover, which is nothing special. You obviously don't have an answer about how they can offer anything unique to potential dog trainers.

So you're unpaid, but you put in the time right? You accept green trainers from this company to help train? That's called work.

Listen, it's quite clear that you want to keep this going. I, however am done. I will not read any more of your posts.
Paid, unpaid (??) ..I took the course, plain and simple. I do not work for ABC or anyone else, and gain nothing by my honest assessment of their program other than to help the OP. Why don't you get that?
I help many aspiring trainers from many different sources, but since you brought it up...ABC grads do stand out as being more prepared and educated than most. You'll notice below that I also recommend a few books by several well known authors, just in case you're wondering...I don't work for any of them either. :lol-sign:

TO THE OP, I AM TRULY SORRY THAT THIS THREAD ENDED UP THE WAY THAT IT DID. I WILL CONTINUE TO TRY TO HELP YOU THROUGH PM'S AS THIS HAS JUST GOTTEN OUT OF HAND. YOU ALSO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE OTHER ABC STUDENT (OPOKKI) TO HELP YOU TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.

DOG TRAINING IS REALLY A TERRIFIC AND REWARDING FIELD, I KNOW YOU WON'T REGRET CHOOSING THIS AS A CAREER. GOOD LUCK!
OH, AND THE BOOK LIST IS GREAT. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, ANYTHING BY JEAN DONALDSON, PAM DENNISON, PAT MCCONNELL, IAN DUNBAR, PAM REID, PAT MILLER...ESPECIALLY THE MORE RECENT STUFF, ARE ALL GOOD BETS

You've done a good job of ignoreing my question about what ABC can offer that's unique, so I'm not supprised you're bowing out. Can't provide an answer so the logical thing to do is ignore and pretend you didn't hear it.

I have no desire to keep this going either. Perfectly happy to drop it. I can only hope that I give any potential trainers who read this thread pause for thought about if they really need to enroll in a training course.

All very respected trainers. And if I'm not mistaken, none have taken a course at ABC to get where they are today. I rest my case.

Yes, they are all very respected trainers, and they all have done a lot of theoretical work as well.

These people have qualifications like doctorates in animal behavior, Ph.D.s in Zoology, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, Certified Animal Behavior Consultant, Ph.D. in Psychology with a specialization in animal learning, CPDT certification and so on.

None of these credentials show up just out of the blue! No, they "haven't taken a course at ABC to get where they are today", they have done more than that. These people have a very solid foundation of the theoretical knowledge relating to animal behavior from sources that your average "run of the mill" trainer doesn't have.

In fact, Jean Donaldson herself runs her own "Academy for Dog Trainers" that offers a "six-week Certificate In Training and Counseling (CTC) program". I doubt she'd be doing this if she thought such a program was useless.

So I gather that for some reason you just have a problem with ABC itself?

Exactly!!!

And here I thought we were dropping this...sigh.

Yes, they do. A degree in animal behavior cannot be compared to simply taking a training course, as I'm sure you'll agree.

If somone is lucky enough to have a few grand to toss out the window and wants to spend it on a certification that may not have any impact on the success of their business...go for it. I can't make everyone see the way I do.
My only point was to provide another point of view, that it is possible to become a successful trainer WITHOUT attending ABC or schools like it. That's all. That's my point. Take it or leave it.

I do agree, but it's the very work of people like them that these courses are based on, making knowledge available to a much wider audience. Not everyone out there has the chance to work with an Ian Dunbar, a Karen Pryor, a Kathy Sdao or a Pat McConnell to gather experience.

Just think of it, how many "pet dog trainers" were out there doing what they do 20 years ago? And how many people out there were training using the principles of Koehler et al?

I'm not arguing that you can't become a good trainer apprenticing with someone knowledgeable, but at the same time there are too many "trainers" out there that will be very confident about themselves and the methods they have been using, but they don't stay on top of current research and development. A good number of trainers like that, especially older ones, will also dismiss what I've heard them describe as "hogwash" - the books written by the very people you listed above.

Someone who is new to this line of work isn't going to know better, and I've seen people stumble into the wrong circles.

You're right in that someone new to the game may not know better at first and end up with the wrong trainer. But, it's up them to try and use common sense when choosing a trainer to work with. If you wouldn't let them touch your own dog, then chances are you shouldn't be working for them.

No trainer is perfect though, even the ones listed above, everyone is going to do something that someone else doesn't agree with. That's just life. I'd like to believe that if a beginner trainer is uncomfortable with the way their boss is working with dogs then they'd search out different avenues.

Yes, there are trainers that are horribly abusive. They're out there as much as we wish they wouldn't be. But I don't believe that they overpower the market anymore. At some point we have to give people some credit for being smart enough to see a bad situation and to to learn from it, not continue it.

If someone isn't able to do that, if they cannot comprehend that hanging, hitting, etc, are wrong and not acceptable even if it's coming from someone that's teaching them, well then I don't think they have any business becoming a trainer anyway. Someone like that most likely wouldn't get much benefit from a training course that taught positive methods anyway if they can't even recognize abuse when they see it. No one should have to be taught how to see that for what it is.

Well, I'm going to give my two cents worth here .. or maybe a full nickel's worth even .. *L*

I can see valid points on both sides. But the fact is that I have no certification in dog training and yet I'm very respected in my area and in other areas as a trainer who is very knowledgeable and capable of training without using a tremendous amount of aversives. I've traveled thousands of miles to give seminars, and have recently been asked to go to Canada to give a seminar there. The people asking for these seminars are doing it because they have observed my dogs and my training style and are impressed with it. And I think that people here on this forum know a bit about my training style from my posts and many will agree that I have experience and knowledge.

I don't feel a training course is necessary to learn how to be a good trainer. There are other options out there for those who truly want to seek them out. But a training course may be perfect for some people, and they may not be capable of learning in a variety of ways (like I did). Different people have different ways of obtaining knowledge. What is right for me may not work for someone else.

And unfortunately, due to the lack of acknowledged standards, anyone can start a "school" and certify people as trainers. We have one "Master Trainer" in our area and she still uses the old-style jerk and pull training - but she always puts that "MT" after her name! People who are wow'd by titles think those initials are pretty darn important. But in all honesty, how many pet people out there have any clue what a Master Trainer is, or any of the other titles and certifications available when it comes to dog training?

People would be far better off choosing their trainers by taking the time to observe and see what their training techniques are like then to just fall for someone because they have some title or a piece of paper framed and mounted on their wall.

My training involved practical experience, training under another trainer, and then attendance of various seminars by various people. I also built a quite nice library of books, video tapes and audio tapes and spent a lot of time soaking those in. I also have trained my own dogs and shown them to nearly 30 performance titles .. along with taking them to schools, fairs, nursing homes, etc. and giving demonstrations of obedience and tricks. This got me out into the public and gave proof of my ability to train and have dogs that worked eagerly for me. And this brought people to me with their own training needs.

I've mentored many other people over the years too .. people who had a desire to learn but didn't have the time or money to spend on a course somewhere out of state. This next weekend I'm teaching a class on instructing (emphasis on techniques of instructing, not on subject matter, but aimed towards potential instructors for our training club). It helps that I have a degree in education ..

The truth of it is that even with certification from a quality dog training school, there are people who will never make good trainers. Others who never are able to attend courses like that will end up as excellent trainers. And, of course, the opposite will happen too .. excellent trainers will come from good courses and bad trainers will come from learning on their own. Some people need to take a structured course because that fits with their style of learning. For me, that wasn't necessary.

Best of luck to the original poster. You need to do what fits for you, and with your limited time you may want to look into many of the excellent informational sites online - and maybe someone in your local area that will mentor you for now. If you have the money and means to attend a course and that's what you want to do, then go for it. It all is up to what will work for YOU as much as anything.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

But do trainers have a problem being a mentor? Do you just approach someone and say I like your technique? I am willing to attend seminars and read books and watch videos too, but I didn't know if someone may take offense or couldn't even believe I would be asking them if I could do something like that. How do appraoch a subject such as this without imposing on someone?

If you do choose this route, there are many trainers who will be open to mentoring. Some will have you sign a contract, some charge and some may allow you to work your time off. As far as approaching the subject, just be yourself and be honest. I know when I'm asked to mentor, I appreciate honesty....even if it's just ("I love dogs and I think I may want to be a trainer"). Most trainers who have been at this for a long time will help you out, even if they aren't accepting an apprenice or involved in mentoring they can send you to someone who is.

A great way to find a pool of trainers to look into would be through your Vet. I think that in most cities it's pretty clear who is respected...the cream often rises to the top and good trainers are quickly recognized but you still must be careful. Some can talk a good game but may not be the best to learn from. Be sure to ask questions about methods and don't be affraid to ask why when someone uses a technique that you're unfamiliar with. I would also find out if they are at least current in their training methods. Do they attend professional seminars and strive to stay on top of the research. Things have changed drastically over the last 10-20 years so be careful to find someone who isn't stuck in the past.

Finding a good trainer can be difficult if you don't know what to look for. Like Melanie said, there are horrible trainers out there offering "certification" to new trainers and there are just really bad trainers with a huge following and successful business. We had one such trainer here who was very abusive to the dogs but so charismatic and convincing when explaining his "expertise" to owners and "students". He has since been run out due to cruelty cases catching up to him but he practiced in my city for many, many years. Another such fraud is still practicing here. I recently got a call about him punching a dog in the face in front of horrified students. He runs Yuppy Puppy University in Calgary and though he is not only not certified himself, very abusive and down right awful..he offers "certification" to others.:yikes: :yikes: BE CAREFUL!!
That is why when you originally posed the question on where to become certified, I gave you only 2 certifying bodies. Not all certification programs are legit just like not all trainers are current or just plain any good. When deciding to go it alone and find a trainer without regulation behind you, it's definitely more difficult...but can be done.

I felt the same way...
For me, I had emailed a local trainer who had attended ABC asking for her opinion of the course. When she responded she told me to let her know if I'd be interested in assisting someone because she knew of another trainer who was looking for assistants. Of course, I jumped at the opportunity.

Maybe you can call or email a few trainers in your area asking about how to go about becoming a dog trainer. If they know you are seriously interested that may open some doors for you.