Should I keep interfering?

I wouldn't rush into neutering Dakota if I were in your shoes. He hasn't gotten out of control IMO. It sounds like he communicated to Ripley to knock off the silly business and quit being a pest....nothing wrong with that. A neutered dog would do that. But glad your trainer will do some observing and help you out. Let us know.

I didn't think he was really out of control. It's very common for Border Collies to deliver little reprimands like that; to other BCs and dogs their size/bigger, that's all it is. To Ripley it's a huge threat and sends him into defense mode, lol. Ripleys little head is the exact size and shape of a tennis ball and he has very thin, fragile skin. It would be so easy for Dakota to hurt him, even if he only meant to correct him.

I wasn't fast enough to body block today - Ripley snarked in Dakota's face and it pissed Dakota off. No harm done, but it sounded like they were both trying to eat each other. Dakota backed off on command but of course, by then, Ripley's brain was gone and he was trying to go after Dakota AGAIN. I had to jump in and grab him. I don't know if that reinforces him for fighting or not. I've been observing them together and maybe it's because I'm such a novice, but I really can't figure out what either one is doing to set the other off. With Ripley being a pest, I can understand why Dakota gets frustrated, but sometimes they will just randomly growl/snarl at one another.

Bah. I hate thinking it but I wonder if Ripley would be better off in a home with no other dogs and a person who'd spend all their time with him. He wouldn't have to deal with sharing (he quite obviously doesn't like to) and could get more attention than he does with me, as I usually keep the boys separated and have to divide my attention between them.

personally i don't think this is an issue with dakota at all. i think this is a ripley issue and that he needs to learn to knock it the hell off. he doesn't need to be in a home with no dogs. he needs you to teach him that it's not appropriate and that you won't put up with it.

if he were mine, i'd put him in doggy boot camp for a little while, perhaps even with some social isolation on the side. he's disrespectful and pushy and he needs to learn that that kind of behavior is not tolerated.

jmo, of course.

I think there is probably a bit of telepathic trash-talking going on. I see it in daycare a bunch, and we have to try and keep those dogs on opposite sides of the playground.

Really, it sounds like Ripley just wants to push Dakota's buttons because he can, and you keeping him from getting hurt might be giving him a complex about how he can't get hurt, so he can do whatever he wants to. It's quite tempting to let Dakota lay down the law just once, but the whole size difference and the fact that you do like Ripley...

I know you've thought about giving him to a family friend before, this may just another sign that it might be the best thing.

I have to agree with this. Sometimes it's so easy to be a pushover with little dogs just becasue they are so small. (not saying you're pushover, but you get my point) I like the idea of doggy boot camp. Maybe make him drag around a leash so you can easily pick it up and move him out of the way.

Seems like you know what triggers this most of the time. I'd just be very aware of it and always pick up that leash and be ready to tug him away from the other dog, then ask for sit, down or whatever else.

He can learn manners. He's got brain cells when he's being naughty.

I have to point out one small thing that I think many people are forgetting. RD has a very good idea of what NILIF is and how/when to apply it. I'm pretty sure she's been doing this all along as well. I think what she's getting as is that depsite all her work and training to this point, Ripley still is being a huge brat to Dakota. I know she doesn't just let him run wild like many people with small dogs tend to do.

Zoom very good point. I'm sure RD has done anything and everything to work on Ripley's problem.

Some dogs are just better off in one dog households. Period. Sure, you can make them behave, and spend all your time and energy to make it so, but that doesn't mean that there won't be the occasional scuffle, and that they wouldn't be better off in a one dog household ultimately.

I don't allow him to get away with murder because he's small. I do not use physical correction on him because he is small. I have been doing all I can to put him in his place without actually physically doing so. I've consulted two behaviorists (one who actually used the word "dominant" in describing him after seeing him, when the day before she gave me a huge lecture on how dominance and pack theory is a crock) about his attitude and have taken their suggestions, but I'm really not seeing a difference in the boys' tudes towards one another. Their attitudes towards me are much improved, but they still dislike one another. I have tried conditioning them to ignore each other, but that backfired on me . . . I've tried super-duper hardcore NILIF, but that still didn't change them squabbling with one another.

The dogs don't like each other. I try my best to keep them focused on me and keep their little doggie egos in check, but conditions arent always perfect and neither am I. I am sure that by protecting Ripley, I am giving him this invincibility complex, but if I were to simply let Dakota have at him, I know he'd get hurt and it would be horrible of me to put him in that situation.

Elegy, the suggestion of social isolation is a great idea. I've tried it before, but unfortunately I live with my parents. My mother is wild about Ripley and she can't go a day without giving him attention. With 3 humans in a 40' RV, it's not easy to have everybody completely ignore the dog.

Believe me, I've done as much as I possibly can to make these dogs live peacefully together. For the most part, they are okay, but it takes so much effort to get non-reactive coexistance . . . It takes a lot out of them, and it gets me thoroughly burned out on playing the peacemaker. I love both of my dogs dearly but I can't take 10-15 years of hostility. I could keep them separated for their entire lives, but that's just continuing to cut their daily time with me in half. If it's absolutely necessary I will do it, but I know that both of them would rather be with me as much as possible and I'd like to have them be able to. I guess I'm leaning towards rehoming Ripley because I don't think he will ever really "fit". I'll always have at least one other dog, and he's continually proving that he will not peacefully share his living quarters with other dogs.

I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts. Boot camp begins tomorrow. I'm actually going to try Cesar Milan's method of exercising the dog into a "calm-submissive" state of mind. I got Rip a long line and am going to run/swim/work him until he is too tired to pick fights. I usually walk him a couple miles per day, but obviously that isn't enough as he's still incredibly hyperactive.

Thanks.

We have sorta the same issues w/ Bruzer and Gunnar, though they both instigate each other. Sometimes Gunnar will just walk by Bruzer and Bruzer will launch into a tirade. Other times he wants Gunnar to play, but if things get rough, he freaks out. When that happens Bruzer is the one who gets the reprimand, not Gunnar, because his behavior is not acceptable. Don't start things and then get mad because the big dog lays his paw on you and pins you down.

If you are going to apply Cesar's principles, be sure and deal with "mom's" behavior as well. I've found it's almost impossible to work on dog issues, without addressing the humans ones first. This is one of the things Cesar teaches. A house divided will not help the dog.

Have your read Cesar's book? I think you really need to in order to understand his complete philosophy, which the TV show alone will not give you, IMO.

Have you seen this?

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001c/manicbarking.htm

This is not the same exact situation, but it's still the same principle. Here, she's focusing on what she wants the dog to do rather than focusing on what the dog is doing wrong. This is what science has shown us...that emphasising what you do want vs. what you don't works better...that focusing on the glass 1/2 full is more effective than dwelling on the glass 1/2 empty. (not a great analogy, but it's sort of like that)

The advise on this thread has been great. Cesar Milan is the last place to look for advise on Canine behavior.

I'm a bit confused here... Why is isolating Ripley and Dakota "impossible" or "bad"? It may be what they need for the time being... At least until you can work the people issues out with Ripley!

You say it is not fair to split your time between two dogs, but then also mention that you have two puppies (that I presume belong to other people) in the house. How is it fair to split your time between other people's dogs and your own dogs when your own dogs have some serious issues that need to be worked out?!

To me it sounds like you are simply looking for excuses to rehome Ripley. If this is the case, then just say so and I'll back off. But, if you're really looking to do what is best for him, then isolation may be what he needs at this point in time. Being kept in the same house, away from the other dogs, with less attention from the people he knows and loves is INFINITELY less traumatic than being uprooted and moved to a new home altogether. If you truly want to honor the responsibility to you made to this dog, you owe it to him to try everything - including keeping him seperate from Dakota.

Also, didn't you have Ripley before you had Dakota? How is it fair to Ripley to be uprooted from his home because you decided to bring in a new dog he cannot get along with? Wouldn't it be much easier to rehome the super spectacular border collie? If you truly want to do what is best for the dogs, but absolutely refuse to seperate them, maybe you should consider rehoming Dakota. Ripley sounds like he has much greater "issues" than Dakota and would really benefit from a stable home. Dakota, on the other hand, despite his one run-in with a stray aggressive dog sounds like he'd do fairly well with a change of environment becuse he'd be able to take it in stride. However, if you want to do simply what you want (have multiple dogs) and not what is best for the dogs, then by all means, rehome your original dog and continue to take on more dogs. Hopefully they'll get along with Dakota so he doesn't eventually have to find an alternative living situation...

I think the whole "living in a 40-foot RV" makes it "impossible" to keep the dog's seperated.

Some dogs just do not get along, period. Just like people, no matter what you do, they are just not going to like each other. Sometimes it's a quiet "you don't exist if I ignore you" dislike, sometimes it's an active one. This seems to be the active type.

RD is training those other dogs, not just hanging out with them for the hell of it. They are also not there 100% of the time.

I can't answer for her about choosing between Ripley and Dakota, but she has discussed rehoming him before as she doesn't feel that she can provide the right environment for him, since he does seem to be geared to be a one dog only type of guy and she has Dakota, to demanding all the attention all the time, which he can't have since there is another dog in the house...that was a really long run-on sentence.

IIRC, Ripley was gotten with a 13 year old's eye for dogs, where as Dakota was picked with more foresight and goals in mind (herding, agility, etc).

As Zoom stated (thank you, Zoom ) I am in a FORTY FOOT RV. There are always people going in and out. Separating them RIGHT NOW is not possible. When I get back to my 4500 sq. foot house, it will be much easier. I still just don't like the idea of splitting up the time that my dogs spend with me - yes, it would be traumatic initially for Ripley to be rehomed, but if he could get all of the attention he wants (which is what I think would make him happier. He loves to be the center of attention) I believe he would adjust beautifully. If he could not adjust, you bet I would take him back. In fact, if he is ever rehomed, I will figure out a way to make his adopters agree to return him to me if at any time in his life, it doesn't work out. But that is beyond the point . . . It seems to me that you don't understand my point in posting this thread - it is not an excuse to rehome Ripley. Honestly, I have excuses to rehome Ripley coming out my ears, but I want to try everything possible (yes, permanent separation from Dakota included) before I resort to that. I don't take the commitment of owning a dog lightly; I'm slightly offended that somebody who does not know me at all would make such an assumption.

I do understand what you are trying to say, Elle, but you are mistaken.

Oh, and the puppies are ones that I am obedience training for their owners. Instead of a conventional summer job, I am doing this. The puppies are not permanent, I have Lucy 1-2 days a week and Nika 3-4 days a week. Nika goes home at night, usually.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

RD is quite an accomplished trainer. She's done a lot with dogs and works closely with a trainer. I've "known" Rd for a few years via this and other boards and I know her to be a very caring and conscienteous dog owner who would do nothing which would compromise the well being of any of her dogs for the mere convenience for herself. She's been struggling and trying with this dog for some time.

It is not easy when you have other people in the family interacting with your dog and spoiling any progress you've made by reinforcing crappy behavior. Some dogs are just plain more difficult. But aversives or a lot of positive punishment, avoidance and coersive tactics (ie: CM) is not the way to go, IMO.

Rd...you know your dogs best and you will know what is the best thing for them and for you.

This is the one method of CM's that I totally agree with. "A tired dog is a happy, well-behaved dog."

LOL. Yes, I whole heartedly agree. (within reason) He advocates 6 hours a day, I think it is. Holy cow! Who has time or energy for that? LOL.

Of course, excerise isn't his own little secret. That's pretty much common knowledge...I mean, it's been around for a long time and I think most trainers recommend exercise, regardless of their school of thought about other things.

RD, I'm sorry if I was mentioning things you were already aware of. I don't really 'know' you yet and hadn't gone back to read any of your previous threads about this situation.

I'm sure you'll do what's best for you dogs.

Silverpawz, this is my first thread on this issue. I greatly appreciate your input.

Exercise worked pretty well today. He played high-intensity fetch (i got a bucket of tennis balls and had him running at full speed for a good hour) and didn't have the energy to start any problems. I had friends over today, though, and crated him for a couple of hours. When he came out, he was full of **** and vinegar again but still didn't give Dakota any trouble. I think because he was too busy with the guests. He's become quite friendly to people lately and is actually starting to enjoy attention from strangers.

I want to do the right thing for both of my dogs but I'm not 100% sure what that is at this point.