Leaving children in car seats.....

I was thinking specifically of this thread. An officer in Phoenix got a phone call that his son was in a serious car accident and forgot his K9 in his squad car for hours, resulting in the dogs death.
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60233&highlight=phoenix+k9+dies

I would not support that officer being charged in that situation.

Neither do I honestly, but there is a huge disparity in poster's reactions to the dog dying vs. children in this thread.

Right. It's not that they dont' think of their child all day. They do think of their baby and when they do they "know" their kid is at daycare. So they can be thinking of their kid all day long until they get to their car, I think in one story the parent didn't even realize something was wrong until they went to pick the kid up from daycare.

Haven't you even SWORN you know something or have done something only to find out you didn't? Sure it may not have happened with anything regarding your child but if your brain glitches, it glitches. It's not about how much you care or about a rampant mental deficiency that you have notice of.

And if your dog is curled up in the back and you think you've dropped it off at daycare all day long until you get to the daycare... I'd just feel really bad for you and the dog and whomever else.

If you decide to wing it and leave your dog in the car on a hot day because you dont' want to drop the dog off before grocery shopping and the dog dies, that's neglect.

Ok.... its more than oops I forgot my child. I did read the story. There's an overwhelming theme in it. The parents were nearly all not paying attentive and on their phones in the car. For starters.

I'm not saying they're not accidents. I'm saying they should be paying attention to driving at the very least, if not their child.

And I still think a reminder is not a stupid idea!

No reminders are a great idea! They are definitely a suggestion from the story! The problem is they only work if you use them and in many of the cases, the usual reminders (baby in rearview mirror behind passenger seat, diaper bag on front seat, etc) were different for that day. And as long as people keep the "It will NEVER happen to me" mindset, they will not use them That was the take home message I got. There are alarms and sensors even out there but people in general wont pay because its not worth it to them with that mindset. I never thought of using them to be honest...though my case is a bit different since I did not use daycare and they were literally always with me...still, I should have to be safe.

Honestly I only remember the cell phone being an issue in one of the stories I read about but there very well could be more.

In some cases I've read about, it happened because routine was changed. IE, mommy usually dropped baby off at daycare in the mornings but <insert reason> happened so daddy had to do drive baby. He was used to doing XYZ and once in the car going down the road reverted back to XYZ.

I can see how having a routine interrupted can lead to something like this. I also understand how everyone *thinks* that would never ever happen to them.

Honestly though, If you have children you know it only takes a moment, just one minute of distraction can be disastrous some days.

I think intent definitely plays a role and for some reason, when it's your own child, I think the rules change a bit. I guess when you break it right down, it's the same, but I just see it differently. If someone is watching your child and does something or forgets something, etc, it's different to me. They should be punished. For parents and tragedy like this occurs, how does anybody benefit by charging them with murder? I certainly don't feel any better, i'm sure the family doesn't, nor anybody else that really matters.

Oh well, i guess i'm just growing tired of our whole societal view of punishment. We're so punitive about every little thing. Everyone must pay and they must pay now, and if we can hold 5 different groups of people liable and punish them for the same thing, even better. and now with the internet people from thousands of miles away can get in on the action. Sometimes the outcome is punishment enough I think

I don't think it's just about intent, there has to be more context.

If it was just tried over intent then anything could go. Child drinks bottle of methadone that mother leaves on counter (she wasn't under the influence at the time, she's under a well maintained programme, she went to the chemist and took a call, places the bottle down and forgets). I bet people would have a different view of that.

Father pops into a shop to buy child an ice cream and child wanders into road and is killed. I bet people have a different view on that again?

Mother forgets that she leaves her loaded gun on the kitchen table... Child picks it up and shoots self. Or sibling. Who is at fault? Nobody? It was an innocent mistake??

At some point we have to be responsible for these little people who can't be responsible for themselves. And that means NOT forgetting they're in your car/home/around dangerous stuff if you can.... Neglect is neglect. Neglect of your duties to care and be responsible for a human life.

Of COURSE mistakes happen... I'm not a judge or jury and I don't ever want to be. But weighing up accountability isn't as simple as "was there intent?". I have to weigh up neglect to children as part of my job and I assure you 99% of parents who neglect aren't really doing it on purpose..... (It's very scary when they do though). They are just not very good at taking responsibility of the life they chose to create. Should we just say "aww but you don't mean it, carry on..."?

i don't claim to see things like everyone else and they may see it differently. If a mother, clean, leaves a bottle of pills on the table and her child dies. I think stupid mistake, but I have no desire to punish her anymore. I don't think it does anybody any good other than make some who have no connection feel better about themselves somehow.

Mother is shot up and strung out and child falls out open window? throw the bitch in jail. She didn't have any intent on taking care of her child.

the ice cream scenario? Punishment enough. Dad is running in to check out some strippers quick and score some blow? lock him up, he didn't intend on taking care of his child, he wanted to see some TnA and get high.

Loaded gun on kitchen table? i feel badly for the kid, but he was her kid. Punishment enough. She's watching other kids and leaves it on the table and a different child gets hurt, punish her, her kid? the loss is punishment enough for me.

Weighing intent goes far beyond, "awww, you didn't mean it"

There are levels...to me this is a level where punishing serves absolutely no purpose.

Ice cream shop - no I dont think there should be any charge. I would be shocked if there were charges brought up and would be really upset unless there was something else going on.

Gun on table - I do feel there should be a charge....and yes I realize in some ways its the same and this may make my a hypocrite but I also think its more of a reminder to only have guns out where children can never ever get to them unattended. I see no reason for a gun being such a routine thing that it would be a slip of the mind to forget its on the table. I guess its kind of like how I feel when I make soap. When I have the lye out or the caustic batter out I do NOT leave, even for a second. I know exactly where the kids and animals are that whole time so that there are no accidents. A car is an every day thing that generally speaking is low risk....you cant have the same danger level of using one as you should with a gun IMO. Then again, I dont think the parent needs jail time for a gun unless there are other circumstances...like the gun is never locked up or the parents were passed out/strung out.

Pill bottle...lean towards no charge but kind of depends.


Children are really hard. Some are so much more naturally into things or wanderers. I have one. I watch him like a hawk and even then he sometimes slips my vision or gets into stuff he shouldnt. I am very against punishment for punishments sake...I think it serves no purpose. Especially in cases where good parents make a mistake and other children are involved (meaning that parent has other children) I think one of the WORST things we can do is punish (ie put in prison).

But they're all accidents... What makes one better or worse than another?

This puzzles me, too. Why is it ok/forgivable to leave the gun out because you forgot, but not ok because you were passed out? Either way, the gun is left out because of your inattention.

To me there are layers there. Passing out is in a way intentional...as you are taking something you shouldnt be while watching your children. Then add another layer of also leaving the gun out....

Leaving a child in a car because you truly forgot in a normal scenario versus being high or drunk, yes, I see a big difference. You are doing something that endangers the child's life in the first place that starts the chain.

There are always levels really.

Dog bites child

A. Family dog that has never shown aggression. Family very involved, dog well trained. One day dog is injured and in panic bites a child.

B. Abused and neglected dog lives in a family. Dog shows all the warning signs. Parents pass out from drugs/alcohol/whatever and child gets bit wandering into the dogs yard.

Do people really not see a difference in those two scenarios? Because I see a huge difference.

You're setting up two completely different scenarios than the previous examples like the gun sitting on the table. A better comparison would be:

A: Child wanders away from sober, lucid parent into dog's yard and is bitten
B: Parent passes out, child wanders away into a dog's yard and is bitten

Those scenarios still show a very different set of circumstances that would influence how I feel about the outcome.

Children are quick and sometimes they can get away before we even realize it but parent just passes out leaving a young child to their own devices and the child wanders and gets hurt... that shows neglect led to the injury IMO

I wasnt using that example as a direct comparison to the gun. I was using it as the same outcome of an accident can happen with the scenarios being very different and to me, the fault or reasons are much different. In one I see neglect, the other I dont.

Both cases the dog belongs to the parents. The dog is properly cared for and safely managed in the first case and there is a tragic accident. In the second case the dog is not properly cared for nor managed. Layered with parents not being lucid nor watching.

And in the situation quoted I still see a difference in whether the possibility of charges should be brought up.

With the gun, I actually agree that there should be charges (though I may change my mind depending and if there were more details) but my gut reaction would be yes, charges. Gun is like having a dangerous dog and needs to be super managed and hyper vigilance with multiple safeguards should be in place.

guns just aren't that scary to me. Generations grew up with loaded guns on racks, in closets, with guns out and the ammo in a box sitting right next to. I don't think they're anymore dangerous than a lot of other things in the house. But I don't really want to turn this into a gun debate.

Dogs are the same. I don't expect my dogs to hurt any child, but if one would wander into my yard and somethign happened and parents had a brief lapse, i'd feel horrible. If the parents were passed out drunk, I'd feel bad for the kid and tell the parents to suck it.

If it were my kid, and it was a momentary lapse type thing, my fault, what more do you wan to do to punish me? I wouldn't want to do anything more to you. I have a history or pattern of not giving a ****? i guess sooner or later I should be punished further, just as I'd expect to happen to you.

I already said, intention for the most part. I know we can argue dead is dead or injured is injured etc, but that's not the argument I'm making. If it's your's, then I guess I have no rebuttal because I think intention makes all the difference in the world. Not in the end result, but what should happen to those involved by society.

And anyway, why are you here, you should be enjoying what's left of your vacation you have much to see and limited days to do it in.

Does the scenario change if the parent passes out due to exhaustion from working long hours all day?