German Shepherd Breeders- west coast

release the hounds · Feb 21, 2014

I guess for some breeds, they really do have a tough time living in today's society. Their "jobs" were very specified and the traits might not carry over very well to what we have today. But for many others, the traits that made them great 100 years ago, make them incredibly useful today as well.

Herding dogs especially. GSD's don't need a flock of animals to herd for their traits to serve society today. The same things that make them great living fences and protectors of flocks make them great companions, great sport dogs, great service dogs etc. They can do things that require them to bite, some things that don't. They can be calm, thoughtful and focused on a single person whom they are trained to be a life saver. They can be used to clear areas from bad people. They can be used to find lost people. They can bite, they don't need to bite to be happy and they can be smart enough to know when it's time and when it's not.

all the traits that made them great before make them great today. I lived in a 600 sq. foot apt with as many as 2 GSD's and 3 cats and a wife

I do NOT in any way find the drive, intelligence, nerve and thresholds of a working GSD to be incompatible with life in whatever century we're in now.

ruffiangirl · Feb 21, 2014

And do you really think that is the same drive they had 100 years ago? Look how few generations it took border collies to change from hard core working dogs to the show lines people scoff at.

And for the most part a dogs job now is pet.

release the hounds · Feb 21, 2014

I don't know, I didn't live 100 years ago. I do know my dogs will go all day long and still be ready for more. I would be very surprised if the drive isn't every bit as much as it was 100 years ago.

AdrianneIsabel · Feb 21, 2014

ruffiangirl said:

Not in my breed.

stafinois · Feb 21, 2014

There are many GSD rescues in California. Why not look there? She'll find the dog that suits her best that has been evaluated by foster homes. Win for everybody!

ruffiangirl · Feb 21, 2014

AdrianneIsabel said:

Thus why I didn't say every dig everywhere.

Oko · Feb 21, 2014

I've heard this debate a lot in border collies, surprise, surprise.

Interesting thoughts on it, IMO:
http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=20887

sillysally · Feb 21, 2014

Emily said:

I always think this idea that pet lines ruin breeds is kind of funny. I will say what I don't like is when poorly bred animals affect the breed's public image; that is unfortunate. However, the idea that pet or show lines somehow affect a breed's working population doesn't make sense to me. I get peed on by lots of nervy pet/show English Cockers at work, but that literally has no bearing on the fact the Ollie's father is out there kicking ass on pheasants. The working lines are unaffected by the show/pet dogs and readily available to those who know where to look.

What affects a breed's working population IMO is whether or not there is still a demand for them as working dogs, first and foremost. And then second, of course, is the selection pressure put on them by breeders and keepers of said working lines.

Pet lines... don't really have anything to do with that. People who want and buy pet line puppies aren't candidates for working line dogs, usually. Maybe it means they shouldn't get a GSD/Lab/APBT or whatever, but regardless or whether they do or don't, the population of WL animals isn't really affected because they were never going to get one in the first place. It was a pet bred dog or nothing. Better there be pet lines for them to seek rather than acquire an inappropriate dog or pressure WL breeders to water their dogs down.

Labrador Retrievers are insanely popular and bred as pets more often than not. If any breed has an abundance of pet lines, it's Labs. Which makes it really hard to get a good bird dog... oh wait, no, it doesn't at all. There are still extremely strong field lines in the Lab despite an abundance of pet AND show lines. Because there is a demand for field line Labs and because the breeders take great care in producing them.

I would never own a show line GSD and I can't say they're my idea of correct for the breed, but... The idea that someone else who does will somehow ruin or affect the breed's working population doesn't really make sense to me. I think the working community in the breed is best off focusing on their own backyards rather than pinning any perceived decline in the breed's working quality on people who want lazy pets. If what pet people and pet breeders do is affecting the quality of your working dogs, I'm confused as to how your breeding program is run.

Let people buy lazy pets and continue to produce working animals for people who want working animals. It's probably better that way. When a breed has no split but a growing demand for pet dogs, you see more problems than not. People are dumb, they don't care how much you tell them not to, they think they want what they want.

This is really interesting article by Retriever Man, I realize some may love or hate him but... he talks about why show lines aren't really a concern in breeds that still have strong working populations. Some breeds are basically "locked" as show lines, there are no lines outside of show lines. GSDs are not one of those breeds. http://retrieverman.net/2014/02/15/why-fat-labradors-in-dog-shows-are-low-hanging-fruit/ I know the old quote from vom Stephanitz as well as anybody and I know they should be a working dog always, but reality... well, it can bite you on the ass sometimes. lol

All that being said, show line GSDs aren't necessarily lazy - we have a big AmLine boy whose owners got him from their son, who got rid of him when they had a baby because he was too much. No temperament issues, just too big and energetic. His current owner still finds him trying. He's actually very mild mannered, just... big and bouncy. So this woman needs to be aware that the dog is still likely going to be handful when young.

:hail:

AdrianneIsabel · Feb 21, 2014

ruffiangirl said:

Yes, but you spoke of breeds not being what they once were and how that coincides with them being pets today.

My breed is not a pet breed. It should not be and I would be equally upset if someone was encouraging pet breeding of my breed. There are many breeds that aren't good pets and to breed a pet version just so someone buying on looks can have a simple dog is silly.

There will always be pets in a more trying focused breeding, why breed for a dog that lacks the breed standard of temperament?

ruffiangirl · Feb 22, 2014

Breed standard for temperament for many breeds originally would not make good pets today, had they not been bred to have better temperaments they simply would have ceased to be, simply put few people now have need, and a while few more want a working temperament, it isn't what most people want. No matter weather you think people should buy dogs by their looks it will never stop them, by having some bred with pet temperaments it means fewer are abandoned in shelters. IME fewer show type Labs are abandoned to shelters then field type labs, neither are rare, you can find both at byb and reputable breeders, yet the batshit crazy go all day field bred labs tend to be abandoned more, why?

For breeds to continue being bred they either need to have a real job that is popular enough to demand their continued breeding, or they need to make reliable family pets, or they will go extinct due to low numbers.

Right or wrong it is what it is.

Red Chrome · Feb 22, 2014

Emily said:

Is this aimed at me?

Cause if it is, first things first, I did not but LoLa. I did not seek out her type, in fact I think her color is ugly. However, she landed in my lap at the right time and instead of fostering her As I intended as I had my name on the list for an AST puppy, I kept her. Call her whatever you want, she's poorly bred and in many peoples eyes, not a Pit Bull but she's what the public sees as pit bull and guess what....she's a good *******breed ambassador. So anyone thinking negative things about LoLa can *******shove it.

I never said that DA was not present in GSDs just not as common as you make it out to be. Which other people agreed and even have their own experience. My own aren't dog friendly bit they're also not dog aggressive.

I don't agree with breeding ANY breed solely for pets unless that was their original purpose...period. A breed with a purpose needs to maintain some form of that in my opinion.. And no, I hate seeing GSDs especially bred as pets, it's misleading and wrong.

Romy · Feb 22, 2014

ruffiangirl said:

I think sometimes people take sport and working lines too far in the opposite direction.

When I think of a traditional working farm/herding dog, I think of something relatively unchanged through the years like English shepherds. They're able to do a full day's work day after day for years, but when it's time to settle down and chill, they don't pace around the room panting heavily and whining because they can't think of anything else to do.

The working dogs of yesteryear were bred to do their jobs. As long as they met the parameters set by their work and didn't break down too young, thumbs up. They weren't brought together by the hundreds or even thousands to compete against each other to see who does the job better, faster, harder, etc.

In the 20th century we've developed all these great dog sports. It's also really easy to travel long distances. So we travel long distances and measure our dogs against all these other dogs from all over the world. Then you figure out which dogs are the best in the world. The part where it gets sticky is that instead of the job being the working standard dogs are measured against like in the past, they're measured against the fastest/hardest/driveyest examples of their breed. And because people are competitive, they start breeding toward more extremes to be able to compete. Some of the linebred mixed breed flyball sport lines out there are a good example of what I'm talking about. Some of those dogs. I have met them. They are pretty dang psycho and I seriously doubt anybody would have created something like that 200 years ago for any kind of job, lol, which is why people had to make something new for that niche.

Some lines of flyball sporter collies are another example where the drive and energy has been taken to an extreme where the dogs aren't really good for the breed's original purpose anymore.

While I personally am more of a fan of working lines of GSDs, there are some out there being bred that are too extreme. GSDs aren't malinois, and IMO taking them too far to that extreme is just as "bad" as going to the laid back no drive extreme. Not that it's a bad thing, but they are both out of standard and the consequences of someone expecting an average GSD and getting a mal in a GSD body instead are a lot worse than someone getting a couch potato.

I suspect too that changing the drive through selective breeding isn't erasing some fundamental piece of their genetics forever and ever, never to be recovered. At some point people could start selecting the higher drive puppies in each litter and bring drive back into those lines without even needing to outcross for it. Or vice versa. Again, as long as fundamentals like health and stable nerves/temperament have been maintained.

Honestly, it's not really a bad thing for there to be a variety of phenotypes and traits within a breed population (within reason) as long as the breeders stewarding the various lines are doing appropriate health and temperament testing, and not misrepresenting their dogs to unsuspecting buyers.

Romy · Feb 22, 2014

Red Chrome said:

What about shih tzus? Or maltese or boston terriers?

What about breeds traditionally bred for dog fighting? Do we still try to make them good for dog fighting despite it being illegal? Or do we pick a new "job" for them? Either way you're fundamentally changing the breed from what it was. Being a good companion was the primary purpose behind creating many of the older dog breeds, and it's more of a legitimate job in this modern day than most other things you could choose to breed for.

crazedACD · Feb 22, 2014

Romy said:

The working dogs of yesteryear were bred to do their jobs. As long as they met the parameters set by their work and didn't break down too young, thumbs up. They weren't brought together by the hundreds or even thousands to compete against each other to see who does the job better, faster, harder, etc.

In the 20th century we've developed all these great dog sports. It's also really easy to travel long distances. So we travel long distances and measure our dogs against all these other dogs from all over the world. Then you figure out which dogs are the best in the world. The part where it gets sticky is that instead of the job being the working standard dogs are measured against like in the past, they're measured against the fastest/hardest/driveyest examples of their breed. And because people are competitive, they start breeding toward more extremes to be able to compete. Some of the linebred mixed breed flyball sport lines out there are a good example of what I'm talking about. Some of those dogs. I have met them. They are pretty dang psycho and I seriously doubt anybody would have created something like that 200 years ago for any kind of job, lol, which is why people had to make something new for that niche.

I like this.

ruffiangirl · Feb 22, 2014

Romy said:

This is what I was trying to say, just put much better.

Red Chrome · Feb 22, 2014

I give! Yay!!! Moar Pets!! I'm going to get a Malinois or.CO and breed it for moar pets for the public!!! Cause they want a cute widdle CO puppy but they don't want all the natural instincts that come with it.....like guarding and stuff. They just want a fluffy couch ornament! There's a market for.them obviously....since breeding for.pets is so awesome for breeds.

I'm done. We will never agree about this.

Romy · Feb 22, 2014

Red Chrome said:

I don't get this weird idea that The Public is this undeserving blob of people that should never ever ever have the companionship of a dog because they're not interested in spending their weekends doing dog sports, or going into a career where they're working sniffer dogs every day or something.

The reality is that people love dogs. Billions of people want dogs. The number of people who are hardcore dog people that pay lots of money to do sports and shows and dog centered recreational activities is very, very small. Those are exactly the people that should be breeding dogs, because that's what they do. Dogs. But I do not agree that they're the only people in the world that deserve to have a dog in their life.

GatorDog · Feb 22, 2014

Romy said:

So if everyone just wants a dog who looks like a GSD and acts like a Golden, then whats the point of breeding them separately?

I don't think sport people are the only people worthy of owning dogs at all. I think breed sport people are the ones who are still trying to test dogs to the ability that they were born (Schutzhund, herding, tracking/trailing, weight pull, and all those terrier trials) and are the ones who deserve to breed. And yes, I do believe that show ratings are still important.

My point from the very beginning is that when you sign up for a herding breed, you should be expecting to provide for a dog with herding instincts. To breed the basis of their existence out of them seems pointless to me. There are plenty of breeders who are still breeding ethically and with purpose to adhere to their breed standard. In their litters, there are probably going to be dogs that are suitable for pet homes and dogs that will be suitable for working homes. Why not support that person rather than someone who just puts two dogs together without the sort of knowledge of the dogs that should be so required before breeding? Without truly testing their breeding stock, how can someone evaluate a breeding dog's temperament?

It's like the macho people who think that their dog would protect them in their home because their big bad GSD barks at the door, when in reality that dog would probably blow its anal glands and hide under the coffee table when pressured. But the dog never sees that situation or is every put under any sort of pressure during an "attack" and therefore, the owner just thinks thats its a strong, protective pet. Then they breed him to their neighbors pet female and pass on all those crappy nerves and don't even know what they're looking at. Then one day, the feabag mess of a dog hits maturity at 3 or 4 years old and nails a non threatening guest walking through the door and everyone acts like they never saw it coming.

There are dogs that were created and bred specifically, according to their standard, to be pets. Why not get one of those if a pet is what you want? Why not just get a Cavalier or a a French Bulldog? I would hope that anything bred for a specific reason otherwise would show traits that identify its purpose anyways..

release the hounds · Feb 22, 2014

I don't believe that only certain people are "worthy" of owning a dog. Well I do, but not in this context

Dogs of all sorts happen, support the breeders or rescues or whatever you want. I just find a sad humor in this great desire of so many to want something they really don't want.

It's like someone saying they want a dog. They really want a dog, and they don't want it to bark, they don't want to have to feed it very often, and they won't be home to let it out to go to the bathroom ever, and they don't have time to train it. They don't want it to chew, whine or lick things either. They basically don't want anything that makes it a dog. I think most would try and steer them in another direction ?

Emily · Feb 22, 2014

Red Chrome said:

I am not ripping on anyone's dog and do not care what type or variety of "pit bull" people chose to own. That is not what my post was about. But I admit I have a hard time understanding choosing to own a pet bred variety of a working breed and then suggesting other workings breeds should not be bred that way.

You admit she's a great breed ambassador, however. You don't feel it's possible for pet bred dogs of others breeds to be good breed ambassadors in their own way?

Sorry, it still doesn't compute for me. It is cool that you chose to own pet bred APBT and love her and it is cool for me if others chose pet bred dogs of _________ breed and love them.

German Shepherd Breeders- west coast

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Rollin' with my bitches