Dealing with Bamm and kids

DJEtzel

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Yep I have been bitten both by overzealous puppies & by dogs missing a tug LOL. In fact all the bites I have recived from dogs were either from mouthy puppies or accidently during play.

Josefina is bad about grabbing really high up on the tug toy, which is why I am the only one allowed to play tug with her. because I am afraid of the remifications if she were to accidently get someone else, even though it would be an accident.
I don't think this is the type of bite we're talking about here.
 
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Some dogs are more reliable than others but both extremes of those impervious to pressure and those so unpredictable that they'll attack anything without any triggers are far more rare than this conversation seems to have given way to.
Agreed 100%. Some of the talk in this thread could leave one with the idea that a door being left open means a dog like Bam is going to fly across the house and maul a baby sleeping in its crib makes me wonder wtf I've missed about this dog.

One of my co-workers ended up with an adult dog that was quite fearful and reactive as a result of her previous life. And she was a bit unpredictable not in what her triggers were, but how tolerant she was of her triggers on any given day. And she would bite with little, if any warning. If I ever had to interact with her I would pretty much always assume she was having the worst day and avoided all her triggers altogether.

When she and her husband were expecting their first child, they agonized over what to do with this dog. They made some appointments to PTS, cancelled them, talked to behaviorists and trainers, made some more appointments, cancelled them... finally they decided the dog would stay in the home at first and they did a combination of medication, behavioral modification, and management. Ultimately they did end up euthanizing the dog because as their children grew older and more mobile, it was clear that the dog was not going to be ok or safe around toddlers although she did fine with them as infants.

That is how I would probably handle things and what I mean by I wouldn't have a sense of urgency about making a euthanasia decision while pregnant or with a newborn. I feel like there is time to work on a plan and to give the dog a chance while children are immobile and relatively nonthreatening to the dog. I'd personally at least want to give my dog that chance, and ultimately if things aren't working then I have another decision to make.

UNLESS I really had that dog who would fly across the house and maul a child in their crib - which frankly I think is so rare it just strains my imagination. But deciding that depends so much on analyzing the previous incidents and that's what I'd be working on immediately.
 

milos_mommy

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Adrienne - do you think a dog savvy adult would let a dog like the client's dog you've described (one who will attack someone for walking into a room) to be around children?? Or a dog that would run up and attack a baby lying on a blanket with zero other triggers, unless the dog was restrained?

Do you really believe being dog savvy has NOTHING to do with dog bites? I'm not saying 100% of the time, I'm not saying 100% of bites. But do you think that statistically, in a household with children where the adults have never owned a dog, taken a training class, or read up on animal behavior - bringing in a dog will be just as likely to result in a bite as a dog going into a family that has raised multiple other dogs, consulted a trainer or behaviorist about any past problems?

If you take a group of children and their parents and send them to a dog bite seminar, do you think that the likelihood of a bite happening in one of their households is actually equal to a the chance of a bite happening in a household where the children and parents have never had any kind of education on dog behavior?

Am I the only one who believes this? Because I've seen a lot of studies on how dog bite prevention and education reduces dog bite statistics, and I've used the studies in arguments against BSL and to encourage people to seek out an education to become more "dog savvy", but apparently other people (who I consider pretty knowledgeable on the subject) think that has nothing to do with dog bites?
 

milos_mommy

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Agreed 100%. Some of the talk in this thread could leave one with the idea that a door being left open means a dog like Bam is going to fly across the house and maul a baby sleeping in its crib makes me wonder wtf I've missed about this dog.
He's flown across the house to attack/aggress towards adult people who he had previously been interacting perfectly fine with - Amber's previous male roommate, as well as (not biting, but growling and displaying warning signs) towards Josh - Amber's HUSBAND and Bamm's OWNER. He's also bitten people while on leash/walks without displaying any warning signs (that Amber could identify) and lunged spontaneously after children on walks.

I don't think a dog that reacts to children (or adults) when on leash is necessarily dangerous, but the combination of instances where Bamm has shown aggression that Amber considered sudden and unpredictable, in various situations, makes me think the likelihood of him never randomly attacking her own baby is a loooot lower than most average pets.
 
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I'm surprised at the number of people who would tolerate bites from a dog. But, IMHO, if your dog bites and you know it bites and that's a risk you're willing to take in order to keep the dog, that's your business and I think it's pretty amazing to see such dedicated dog owners.

But, it's a different ball game to expect a toddler to be dog saavy even if the parent is. Kids that age just aren't. Especially with the terrible two's. They're kind of like little Godzillas and lots of times they just will NOT listen because they think the world is an inherantly safe and fun place made just for them.

Getting hurt just doesn't factor for them.

If it did, little ones wouldn't need parents lol

Anyway, maybe a bite wouldn't be a reason to put your dog down if you're the only one at risk. But, if you're legally obligated to make choices for a little person who doesn't understand the world at large, then as a parent your first job is to keep them safe no matter whether YOU think that a biting dog is ok to have around.

Again, I don't know Bamm. The OP is a far more patient person then I am, because the one time I had a dog in my house that acted like he *might* bite my kid was out in less then an hour after I saw the warning signals. I personally wouldn't give the dog a chance to fail.

Also, I can tell the OP that for the first several weeks after you give birth, you WILL feel like you've been in a car accident. You won't be able to lift over 10 lbs or so and someone *will* have to take care of your dogs for you because you will not be able to physically do it. You will be told to avoid stairs if possible and you will be cautioned against even vacuuming.

People will be in and out of your house wanting to see you and see the baby and bring food and have dinner and on and on...what's Bamm going to do then if you can't manage him? Is your husband as vigilant as you are?

I'm just trying to think back to when I first had my little man, and I can't IMAGINE having to manage a dog like that while having a newborn.
 

Dogdragoness

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Most of the bites that occur that people label as unfounded often are labeled as such due to the lack of the ability of the humans involved to see the warning signs or triggers.

lets face it, the average dog owner might not see whale eye, freezing, lip licking, yawning or ears back as the warning signs they are with some dogs. Not saying this is the case with Skittle & Bamm or a majority of the people here, but to the average person, inless the dog is showing teeth or growling, they dont see the signs & therefore get bitten ... sometimes badly because the dog might have been warning them many many times, they just didnt see it.
 

milos_mommy

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Most of the bites that occur that people label as unfounded often are labeled as such due to the lack of the ability of the humans involved to see the warning signs or triggers.

lets face it, the average dog owner might not see whale eye, freezing, lip licking, yawning or ears back as the warning signs they are with some dogs. Not saying this is the case with Skittle & Bamm or a majority of the people here, but to the average person, inless the dog is showing teeth or growling, they dont see the signs & therefore get bitten ... sometimes badly because the dog might have been warning them many many times, they just didnt see it.
I completely agree.

I also wanted to point out, I think a lot of people using the word "bite" in very different ways. When I talk about dog bites in a way that's serious enough to consider PTS...I mean a hard, aggressive, damaging bite. Not a nip, or a bite hard enough to bruise. I mean a bite where the dog won't let go, will repeatedly bite down, or causes notable soft tissue damage.

If my dog was the kind of dog who would nip a kid that was running around screaming, or snap and leave a small bruise on a kid that tried to take a bone from it....I'd have no qualms about leaving it in the house and supervising it with my children.

If my dog was the kind of dog that's bitten down on someone and needed to have their mouth pried off, or drew a significant amount of blood with a bite, or kept going to bite someone after the person backed off, they wouldn't be going anywhere near my kids - unless I could be really confident whatever caused those bites was a) situational and b) I could prevent a similar situation from reoccuring. (Ex. would be a dog that bit like that during a dog fight being broken up or when someone tried to take it out of a crate or something).
 

AdrianneIsabel

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I think that is why many of us have repeatedly said a bite is not a bite is not a bite. There is no black and white and there are many grey areas which would determine the outcome which will subsequently vary for each owner.
 

Dogdragoness

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I'm surprised at the number of people who would tolerate bites from a dog. But, IMHO, if your dog bites and you know it bites and that's a risk you're willing to take in order to keep the dog, that's your business and I think it's pretty amazing to see such dedicated dog owners.

But, it's a different ball game to expect a toddler to be dog saavy even if the parent is. Kids that age just aren't. Especially with the terrible two's. They're kind of like little Godzillas and lots of times they just will NOT listen because they think the world is an inherantly safe and fun place made just for them.

Getting hurt just doesn't factor for them.

If it did, little ones wouldn't need parents lol

Anyway, maybe a bite wouldn't be a reason to put your dog down if you're the only one at risk. But, if you're legally obligated to make choices for a little person who doesn't understand the world at large, then as a parent your first job is to keep them safe no matter whether YOU think that a biting dog is ok to have around.

Again, I don't know Bamm. The OP is a far more patient person then I am, because the one time I had a dog in my house that acted like he *might* bite my kid was out in less then an hour after I saw the warning signals. I personally wouldn't give the dog a chance to fail.

Also, I can tell the OP that for the first several weeks after you give birth, you WILL feel like you've been in a car accident. You won't be able to lift over 10 lbs or so and someone *will* have to take care of your dogs for you because you will not be able to physically do it. You will be told to avoid stairs if possible and you will be cautioned against even vacuuming.

People will be in and out of your house wanting to see you and see the baby and bring food and have dinner and on and on...what's Bamm going to do then if you can't manage him? Is your husband as vigilant as you are?

I'm just trying to think back to when I first had my little man, and I can't IMAGINE having to manage a dog like that while having a newborn.
I dont think its that black & white. Every dog could be labeled as "might bite a kid" because every dog has teeth & has the potiental to bite.

When I was young, if I had been pestering a dog & got bit or snarked at by the dog for it then I would have gotten EXTRA consequence from my parents & a "I told you so" lecture from them. I happen to believe that kids can learn, even young kids. they CAN learn, sometimes kids ... like puppies need to be told off LOL.

Of course there are the dogs that will not ever be good with kids just like there are dogs you would never trust with a puppy ... a baby is a baby regardless of species & they all need a certain amount of patience & understanding. Bamm might surprise, he might turn out to be really good with a youngster, you never know. Just like dogs that are horrible with other adult dogs are remarkably patient with puppies & young dogs. Just as I have seen dogs that are very intolerant of adults be great with children ... its like dogs just know sometimes.

But its important to to keep in mind that the dog is what it is ... an ANIMAL, & will sometimes behave as such.
 

stardogs

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Also, I can tell the OP that for the first several weeks after you give birth, you WILL feel like you've been in a car accident. You won't be able to lift over 10 lbs or so and someone *will* have to take care of your dogs for you because you will not be able to physically do it. You will be told to avoid stairs if possible and you will be cautioned against even vacuuming.

People will be in and out of your house wanting to see you and see the baby and bring food and have dinner and on and on...what's Bamm going to do then if you can't manage him? Is your husband as vigilant as you are?

I'm just trying to think back to when I first had my little man, and I can't IMAGINE having to manage a dog like that while having a newborn.
This cant be emphasized enough! There are a LOT of changes the first few weeks of new parenthood - if Bamm stays with your family, be SURE you have plans *and* back up plans in place for how to deal with these first few weeks. Have plans for c-sec recovery too, just in case - if Josh needs to improve his dog handling skills to manage Bamm during this time, make sure he's willing to AND have him work on those skills NOW.
 

Toller_08

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I am a little late to this thread, but have read it and just wanted to offer my 2 cents.

I've been bitten, with skin broken, twice. Once was breaking up a fight between two 8 month old Dobermans, which was my fault for getting in the way, but I wasn't really thinking of anything other than "get the dogs away from eachother". And the most recent was an Aussie bite because I unintentionally surprised the dog and I guess she wasn't expecting another person to be in her house. I was a little shocked and didn't even want to tell her owner until my hand started to throb and I couldn't exactly hide it, but again, it was provoked. That reaction is one I hope my dogs wouldn't have themselves (to bite when surprised), but I understood it and certainly didn't think ill of the dog.

Those are bites that I can totally understand and don't really fault a dog over. The last one, like I said, I wouldn't tolerate from my dogs very well, but I could understand it and it would be something I'd work on.

I've also had the experience of living with a very unpredictable, unstable dog. He just had no predictability about him at all and would just lunge forward to try and grab somebody. There were warning signs, but no clear triggers. What he was fine with one moment, he was not the next. Thankfully he never made contact because he was managed well in the time we had him, but he sure tried. We adopted this dog, and while they performed some sort of temperament tests on him, they barely had him long enough to really know anything about him. He was put to sleep. A dog like that is NOT a dog I would ever keep or give to anybody else. No matter how much work or time I could/would've put into him, I'd never have trusted him. Too much risk and liability. There are so many stable, non-biting dogs out there... I myself just could not justify keeping a dog like this dog around.

With that said, Bamm does not sound nearly as extreme as the dog I mentioned above. He's pretty happily lived a good life with Amber and has come a long way and made huge progress. But, he certainly appears to have a level of unpredictability about him. A dog shouldn't appear to be nice and comfortable and then freeze and stress and want to bite for no apparent reason. Behviour such as that might be manageable now, but I would be very concerned with having him around a child, and with as much time and energy as a child takes up, I can't imagine trying to balance life as a new mom, with two other dogs, and a segregated dog while giving everybody everything they need. I think I'd worry that if Bamm had to be segregated from the baby that he might become more stressed and frustrated, and thus he might take some steps backward and become more of a bite risk.

I honestly can't say what I'd do in this situation. Amber, Bamm has been with you for so long now and I know how much you love him and how heartbreaking it would be to have to figure out what's going to happen in the future regarding him. He's obviously very well loved, well trained and well managed.

I feel like if I were in this same situation, with a dog like Bamm, I'd probably give some serious thought to having to potentially euthanize. For myself, there is just too much risk involved from the sounds of things. From what has been said about him throughout the years on this forum, I just really do not think I could trust him around a child and it would likely take a lot of management in and around the home to make sure he never had a chance to injure the child. I definitely would not want to see him put into rescue for the reasons Sizzle mentioned, and I feel like rehoming him would not be easy and it'd have to be to just the right person who totally understands what they're taking on. But I know it's way easier to sit here and speculate about a dog that's not mine. This is a tough situation and one I hope to never be in. And I also don't have kids and don't know if I ever will or not at this point, nor do I have a dog I'd consider to be a bite risk toward a child or anybody else... so while I sit here and think, it's really very hard to even suggest what might be best.

With as much time and years and work that you've already put into him though, I'd likely speak to behaviourists first and give him a chance, because it's not as though he's outright aggressive and constantly biting. The bites he has had have not been good, but all in all, it sounds like he gets through most days relatively uneventfully.
 

Danefied

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I think that is why many of us have repeatedly said a bite is not a bite is not a bite. There is no black and white and there are many grey areas which would determine the outcome which will subsequently vary for each owner.
This...

FTR, I really know nothing about Bamm other than Skittledoo is concerned about how he will handle babies. I'm not going to make any assumptions about him based on forum posts and opinions.

And to be fair, you really don't know how ANY dog is going to react to your child. 10 years ago we came home with two preemie babies, one on an apnea monitor that loved to go off at random times with the baby in my lap breathing just fine, and had us all on edge. Our weird, socially inept, fearful dog who I thought would hate the kids absolutely adored them. Like ADORED them. Then they became mobile and he went back to making himself scarce. His last two years, when the kids were about 8, he went back to adoring them.

Our other dog, who I figured would tolerate them well, indeed did, until they got mobile and he too decided they were demon spawn. He was a dog who had no problem using teeth to make a point, but he had stellar bite inhibition, so even when one toddler fell down the stairs and landed on top of him, all he did was roar in the kid's face. Never made tooth contact. Scared the poop out of the kid, but no physical damage.

Meanwhile there are rare dogs like Bates who was eating his dinner when a visiting kid did a cartwheel and crashed on top of him. He pulled himself out from under her and licked her face twice before returning to his meal.
This is not normal.
If we all rejected combining dogs and kids unless we have a Bates-type dog, virtually no one would grow up with a dog. And that would be a shame indeed.
 

Dogdragoness

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Yes, its easy for any of us to say "Well, thats easy ... just euth." or I wouldnt tolorate this from MY dog." because it ISNT our dogs, its someone elses dog who we have no emotional attactment to. I think many of us would be singing a much different tune if it were our own dogs.

Its always easier to look at the situation objectively when emotions, feelings, time & energy arent involved.
 
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I completely agree.

I also wanted to point out, I think a lot of people using the word "bite" in very different ways. When I talk about dog bites in a way that's serious enough to consider PTS...I mean a hard, aggressive, damaging bite. Not a nip, or a bite hard enough to bruise. I mean a bite where the dog won't let go, will repeatedly bite down, or causes notable soft tissue damage.

).
Which is something Bamm did is it not?
 

JennSLK

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Also, I can tell the OP that for the first several weeks after you give birth, you WILL feel like you've been in a car accident. You won't be able to lift over 10 lbs or so and someone *will* have to take care of your dogs for you because you will not be able to physically do it. You will be told to avoid stairs if possible and you will be cautioned against even vacuuming.

People will be in and out of your house wanting to see you and see the baby and bring food and have dinner and on and on...what's Bamm going to do then if you can't manage him? Is your husband as vigilant as you are?

I'm just trying to think back to when I first had my little man, and I can't IMAGINE having to manage a dog like that while having a newborn.
I may have missed were Amber said she would need a section but in all honesty if you have a normal problem free vaginal delivery you should be fine. Yes it will be tender down there for a week or so, but to avoid lifting 10lbs?? That is a bit over the top.

It is always good to have a back up in case you don't have a perfect delivery I just had a problem with the big you will have these issues in the quoted statement. Unless of course I missed were Amber will be having a section.
 

Toller_08

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Yes, its easy for any of us to say "Well, thats easy ... just euth." or I wouldnt tolorate this from MY dog." because it ISNT our dogs, its someone elses dog who we have no emotional attactment to. I think many of us would be singing a much different tune if it were our own dogs.

Yeah, nobody anywhere said it would be easy. I said it's easier to sit and speculate because he's not my dog, but I never said it's easy. It's not. I've euthanized a couple of dogs for reasons that were not physical illness or old age, and no, it's not easy. But sometimes it's the right thing, IMO. Who knows if it is in Bamm's case or not, though. Too hard to say at this point really.
 
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Well, that's what I was told. For two weeks after delivery, no lifting anything heavier then the baby and avoid stairs.

And I did feel like I was in a car accident for that two week period of time.

It's pretty exhausting at first.

I don't know how her birthing experience will be, but if she decides to work with her pup, then she will have to find alternate arrangements for his care until she adequately recovers.

I stand by my post.
 
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I agree with preparing for the worst, but I had a normal delivery and walked out of the room, ate pizza visited with family, went home 3 days later and was none the worse for wear, went back to caring for my 2 dogs and weekly water changes on the fish tanks pretty much immediately, my sons father didn't take any time off work and I was home alone.
 

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