I've had it with these ridiculous Border Collie people.

Aleron · Oct 26, 2012

Not all breed groups are like what is being talked about here. Popular breeds with a big split though, the discussion groups tend to be as split as the dogs. Of course, in those breeds there often are discussion groups to fit whatever you happen to enjoy about the breed, so it can all even out

The PyrShep groups and the main Belgian group are open to everyone with a PyrShep or Belgian (of any sort) from anywhere and no matter what you do with your dog.

I understand people who want BCs preserved as working dogs above all else. But I also understand people who want to compete with their dog in more modern games and want dogs from lines who are proven in those areas. I think there's room for everyone. I don't believe in more popular breeds that show/performance breeders are "ruining" the breed. If working BCs cease to exist, it won't be because of show/sport breeders but because the BC is no longer needed for work due to times and people's needs changing. As it is, the fact that there are show/performance or even pet bred BCs doesn't really affect the working population any more than American showline GSDs affect what working bred GSDs. The show/performance breeders outcross to working lines but the reverse is almost never true, so the idea that the show dogs would "water down" the working population just doesn't make much sense.

OwnedByBCs · Oct 26, 2012

puppydog said:

Well, my dogs don't transform into a different being when I go into the show ring. They are the same dog in the show ring and in the field, I just have to wash them before a show and wash them after a day of herding

In fact, Sadie's son went from getting his Herding Championship one weekend and a major the next. It happens, its just not super common anymore.

With that being said, I don't really care if someone breeds for show wins. It doesn't affect my life. I don't personally do it, but with that said I care less about why someone's breeding dogs and more about how they're doing it.

OwnedByBCs · Oct 26, 2012

Aleron said:

Not all breed groups are like what is being talked about here. Popular breeds with a big split though, the discussion groups tend to be as split as the dogs. Of course, in those breeds there often are discussion groups to fit whatever you happen to enjoy about the breed, so it can all even out

The PyrShep groups and the main Belgian group are open to everyone with a PyrShep or Belgian (of any sort) from anywhere and no matter what you do with your dog.

I understand people who want BCs preserved as working dogs above all else. But I also understand people who want to compete with their dog in more modern games and want dogs from lines who are proven in those areas. I think there's room for everyone. I don't believe in more popular breeds that show/performance breeders are "ruining" the breed. If working BCs cease to exist, it won't be because of show/sport breeders but because the BC is no longer needed for work due to times and people's needs changing. As it is, the fact that there are show/performance or even pet bred BCs doesn't really affect the working population any more than American showline GSDs affect what working bred GSDs. The show/performance breeders outcross to working lines but the reverse is almost never true, so the idea that the show dogs would "water down" the working population just doesn't make much sense.

Agreed

OwnedByBCs · Oct 26, 2012

Fran101 said:

I can only imagine.
I joined the BCboard for about...37 seconds. LOL It was a little too intense for me.

"Oh hi, my name is Bob and I'm considering getting a border collie puppy this summer"
"RELEASE THE KRAKEN!! SHOW BREEDERS ARE EVIL!!"
"WORKING BREEDERS!!"
"RUINING THE BREED!"
"umm.. I found a responsible breeder but she works within the AKC.."
"THIS IS SPARTA!!"
"DISHONOR ON YOU! DISHONOR ON YOUR COW!!"
"YOU ARE AN ANTICHRIST!"

It's like jesus everyone calm down!

They hate me there.

I lol'd at this post so much though. Especially the Mulan reference <3

Laurelin · Oct 26, 2012

OwnedByBCs said:

That could be kind of cool.

OwnedByBCs · Oct 26, 2012

Laurelin said:

It'd probably help us win more...

SoCrafty · Oct 26, 2012

You know, that's really good to know. It seemed to me that breed groups were becoming very harsh and judgemental. I am glad that there are still those out there that enjoy the dog, and discussing the silly things their dogs do, or be able to ask questions

Flyinsbt · Oct 27, 2012

BCs really have particularly dramatic politics. We don't have them like that in Staffords. I mean, of course there are politics, there always are. And there are disagreements about what traits the dogs should have. But just not to that degree.

puppydog · Oct 27, 2012

I don't understand how a dog that had no breed standard for so many hundreds of years now all of a sudden needs to conform to looks?

They are working dogs. What they look like shouldn't matter.

OwnedByBCs · Oct 27, 2012

puppydog said:

I don't disagree with that personally, but its not my right or my job to tell anyone what they can and cannot breed for- I sure would be sad if someone told me what I couldn't breed for

pendragoncorgis · Oct 27, 2012

I'm on two PWC boards and they seem to be generally good to get along with, I haven't come across very many who are hell bent on one thing or another but then I haven't brought up much either. I learned to keep my mouth shut for most things while being in Doberman boards, those I will NEVER go back to and they are the reason why I'm reluctant to get another one. I love Dobermans but I can't stand a good majority of the people involved in showing and breeding them. Maybe I could get along with the working breeders but who knows

I just think choosing against a color is ridiculous unless said color prevents the breed from doing the job it was bred for or comes with serious health issues. Why must you limit the gene pool by doing that?

elegy · Oct 27, 2012

puppydog said:

Oh, I think what they look like has always mattered, to some extent, whether working dog people acknowledge it or not. It's just not been written down on paper and paraded around a show ring.

I'm not wild about any working breed being bred for the conformation ring and the conformation ring alone, but the world is a different place now and conformation is a game people want to play with the dogs they love.

Shai · Oct 27, 2012

pendragoncorgis said:

Depends on which way it happens. Forbidding a color that never or rarely appears in a breed isn't really limiting the gene pool any more than the current registry system already is since the only time the color would appear in theory is in the case of a mix breed OR there may be by some long shot an odd pup here or there that turns up in that color...but chances are the whole litter won't and there are others with the same pedigree to breed on.

On the other hand, banning a color that is normally seen in a breed simply because the folks who wrote the standard don't like it or whatnot...yeah then I'm right there with you.

skittledoo · Oct 27, 2012

Fran101 said:

Ya this was pretty much similar to my experience on the board. Oh and nevermind the fact that my BC is a mix (although he is majority BC).... There response? CURSE YOU! THAT THING IS NOT A REAL BC!!!!!

I worked him on sheep a little for fun and practice. He loved it! But again...

THAT THING IS NOT A REAL BC!!! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO DO WHAT BC'S DO!!!!

To he honest, if I ever get another BC I would prefer working or sporting lines... Though leaning more towards sporting because of the attitude that IME comes with a lot of the strictly working people. I personally won't buy from a BC show breeder UNLESS they really have what I would be looking for and do other things with their dogs aside from showing.

Barbara! · Oct 27, 2012

puppydog said:

It's not magically a different breed.... I really don't understand this logic.

That's like, in really extreme APBT world, apparently a show bred APBT isn't an APBT, it's an AmStaff. Like, what? That doesn't make any sense to me. Just because the dog is being used for something different doesn't mean it's an entirely different breed.

AdrianneIsabel · Oct 27, 2012

elegy said:

I agree, I hate how people presume dogs outside of a show ring have NO direction for looks. Like, really? How silly.

That said there is a woman with "Barbie collies", if you will, here. These dogs are extreme with huge coats, soft features, and minimal drives. If that suits someone, so be it, but I can see how undesirable that would be for a breed made to work.

Kilter · Oct 27, 2012

There are so many 'crazies' within the border collie world, sometimes I wonder about getting more into the breed. But they're the breed for me, so what the heck.

They're not supposed to be marshmallows, but they're also not supposed to be high on crack 24/7 either. I think blue eyes on a black dog is the least of the issues out there when there are vets openly breeding displastic dogs, always advertisements for 'she loves to run and bark, will make a great flyball dog' and everything else. And herding people telling people (around here anyway) NOT to do any sort of training or socializing with their pups, that'll ruin the dog. Keep it in the backyard for a few years.....

Emily · Oct 27, 2012

puppydog said:

LMAO... MOST breeds had no standard for hundreds of years. The idea of a physical standard, closed stud books, and comparing the conformation of dogs for ribbons is a VERY recent one. By that logic, just about all of the working, herding, and gun dog breeds shouldn't be in the breed ring. Ever.

God, people are so irrational about BC's. Too funny.

Personally, I wanna be there to see OwnedbyBC's dogs transform in a cloud of smoke when they step foot in the conformation ring.

Laurelin · Oct 27, 2012

My favorite was being told the only way I could get a working bred BC from many people was to never have an AKC dog again. When I said I love papillons and AKC is pretty much the only registry for the breed in the US, it was tough luck. No AKC people can be reputable. Well too bad, I guess. I'm not signing away my papillons to get one of your dogs.

I love BCs but I've run into (online and in real life) sooo many crazy people in the breed. And sooo many snobby people in the breed.

Aussies are split pretty badly but most the aussie people I know are more of a live and let live. They know what they like in a dog but aren't damning people breeding towards another type to hell. And there are a lot more crossover breeders and the ASCA seems a lot more friendly.

Aleron · Oct 27, 2012

skittledoo said:

There are plenty of people who really breed BCs to work (and have no interest in trialing, which I think is what the majority of people on the BC Boards consider breeding for work) that really don't care what you do with your puppy from them. There's a BC at our local club bought from a family who...of all things breeds BCs to work on their farm and they think it's cool he's doing AKC agility, even came to a trial to watch. Their dogs have also gone to disc dog homes, although most are working sheepdogs on farms. They have merles too :O You can sometimes find such breeders looking through classified ads in local farming oriented newspapers. If I were to get a BC, that would likely be where I'd look. Mind you, these sorts of working breeders often don't health test but they also tend to sell their puppies for not much more than a rescue charges or even less, have no contracts and don't care who you register them with (some even...register them with AKC :O ). To farm work oriented people, the value of the dog is in the developing and training of them, not in buying a puppy who may or may not turn out.

I've had it with these ridiculous Border Collie people.

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