Anti-Breeder Attitudes?

"Hate breeders and want them to die"? Really? I know some hardcore rescue people that certainly don't wish death on breeders...I'm sure you have random nuts that feel that way, but not liking that people breed does not equal murderous hated....

Actually many, many people give thought to rescues-how they should be run, which dogs they should or should not take in, that they take in too many hard cases, or not enough, that their uncles friends cousin went to a breed rescue and they wouldn't give them a beagle unless they had a 7 foot fence, a masters degree and made at least 100k a year, that they post too much on Facebook, or not enough, that they wouldn't be saving this sort of dog with that sort issue, etc, etc.

That was my thought too. And they had just taken in 80 dogs, so it's not like they could afford to be picky.

I've only really seen super anti breeder types on the net, not in my daily life. In fact, most folks I know who are involved in rescue have at least one breeder dog.

I have one rescue dog and one breeder dog. Likely in the future we will have a mix of both. It's very likely if we get another bully breed it will be a rescued adult to better assess potential dog aggression levels, and the husband really wants a greyhound. There are also many perfectly wonderful labs and lab mixes that find themselves homeless when their owners realize that labs don't train themselves and that a one year old lab is nowhere near mature. I also might get a breeder dog for various reasons.

My preference in a reputable breeder or a rescue is that they recognize the value of each other. I would not buy from a breeder that was snobbish about rescues nor would I adopt from a hardcore anti breeder rescue. There is actually a bird rescue that I was looking into, but they are very against breeding of any kind, much more than I've seen in any dog rescue, so I backed off.

The one pup of my breeding that I placed went to a home that would not have taken a rescued dog. They didn't even want a dog, they already had 5. (the eldest 3 all being rescues, though one of those was adopted from across the country, so there was a very specific choice made there). My friend loves bull breeds, and particularly the Staffords, and particularly my bitch, Tess, the dam of the litter. Since she already had 5 dogs, and will probably always have a houseful of dogs, adopting a rescue pit bull was something she didn't want to do. Incorporating another adult dog could be challenging, and a pup, you don't know what the temperament is going to be. In bull breeds, it could easily turn out to be intolerant of other dogs. She didn't want to have dogs that didn't get along. I promised I would take the pup I gave her back if she grew up intolerant of other dogs in the household. A rescue really shouldn't make promises like that (if any ever do), but as a breeder, I felt comfortable saying that. (I probably wouldn't do that with just anyone, but this really was the best home on the planet, and I wanted my girl to have her chance at it)

I was personally really tempted by some rescue puppies a few months ago. A friend posted on FB a flyer for a litter of Plott puppies that were in a rescue. It's a breed I'm interested in owning some day, so I was highly tempted, though it would be a terrible time for me to get another dog. However, the flyer stated that the pups would be spayed/neutered before placement. Which is fine and good, but since I would want to do agility with my Plott puppy, I wouldn't want it altered at such a young age. I would want it altered, certainly, but not until it were a year or so.

And realistically, these people don't know me, if I contact them and ask to have a pup unaltered, with me already having an intact male dog in my house, are they going to say yes? I highly doubt it. So, sanity prevailed, and I did not ask for a puppy.

Anyway, I do agree with the idea that people should be able to have the dogs of their choice, be they from a breeder or from a rescue. I will always encourage people to get a rescue if that suits their needs, but it doesn't for everyone. And I don't think we have the right to dictate to people whether their reason for wanting a dog from a breeder is worthy or not.

I have run into the anti breeder folks a few times, particularly when I was working in a shelter, funny enough. I had a couple people that were really upset and angry that I had bought my first dog and was going to buy a second.

I think it was silly. I got 2 dogs that fit me perfectly. They will never see another home (unless something happens to me). My breed... I never saw a single papillon in our shelter in the years I worked there. I did consider a shelter dog instead of Mia but all we had were terriers or chihuahuas. A few dachshunds. None fit me very well, especially compared to Mia, who fits me like a glove.

I am all for people finding a good match for them. I think that is the most important thing.

Not true at all. I've come across quite a few "holier than thou" breeders in my time. It goes both ways, and it's a ridiculous way of thinking.

Well yes and no on that one. Not every pup in the litter is going to be a show quality, or working quality dog - there's always a range in most cases of hot working dogs and not so hot dogs. The not so hot dogs are generally pets, but quality, predictable, healthy pets. There is a place for them, not everyone wants a rescued older dog. If I want a specific breed and a well bred dog from a responsible, ethical breeder and I'm willing to wait a year or more in some cases, that's my choice. If I want a specific breed and go on kijiji and get the cheapest puppy of that breed that I can pick up in an hour, no questions asked and meet the person at walmart... well then I need a shock collar.

I do support responsible breeders AND rescues, and think the two groups would in a perfect world work together more, but it doesn't happen often. Most of the breeders I know require puppy classes and do a lot of support, the rescues send you off with a dog and call in a month to see how it's going. Very different! I see so many rescued dogs that have issues and the rescue doesn't want to impose on the people to take classes, so the issues just fester....

I hate the thought that breeding for pets is somehow lesser than breeding for show or some other sport. Most dogs in the US are pets. I do sports with my dogs but they're pets a lot more of the time.

What is bad about breeding pet dogs with stable temperaments and characteristics people want?

Preach it, sister.

Because like I said, there are thousands of those dying in shelters every single day. No breeder should go "Hey, I'm going to breed these guys to make some good pets for people", IMO. There should always be a purpose beyond pets. I don't think pets are lesser in any way... But there are already too many of them and they are being euthanized because breeders think it's okay to create a whole litter just as pets.

Now, I know reputable breeders breed litters that have pet quality puppies. That's unavoidable and that's not what I'm talking about. To breed a whole litter with the intention of making pets, to me, is wrong.

The idea that breeding for pets is fine and dandy can legitimize the productions of a lot of backyard breeders.

A 'pet' isn't a pet isn't a pet. You can't say 'there are so many pets being euthanized that there is no need to breed more'! It's ignoring the fact that those dogs in the shelter may be the total opposite of what the people just looking for a nice pet want. There are even not enough of certain kinds of pets.

There is nothing wrong with breeding good, healthy pets with stable temperaments with characteristics that people want.

I completely disagree. There are dogs of every size, shape, and color in shelters. I never said I had an issue with people buying from breeders for a pet... There are pet quality puppies in every show or working bred litter. So, reputable breeders are making pets anyways. But for a breeder to say that they want to make an entire litter just for pets... That's when they become a backyard breeder, to me.

To me every litter a reputable breeder produces should be produced with the intention of carrying on and bettering the breed and continuing the good line.

I'm iffy on the breeding for pets thing. Because yes, I think there are many good pets already in shelters. And because it's something that I've been programmed to see as wrong.

And yet, what about pets is it that makes breeding for them less worthy than breeding for show or agility dogs? I'm not so sure that stance is right.

The other thing is that it has become really obvious to me that most people want a pet dog that is pretty much without drive. Which is anathema to me, as a sport person, I like dogs with drive, and lots of it. For pets, most people want a dog that's just slightly above a stuffed animal.

So is it really wrong for people to breed that? It's kind of an unnatural trait, so to achieve it, there has to be some deliberate intent. And it's not something I'm likely to accidentally breed, as a sideline to breeding sport dogs. Even show dogs need a certain sparkle, which means drive.

So while I'm still iffy on breeding for pets, it's hard for me to criticize it entirely.

This. What many dog owners in the US want first and foremost is a good PET. And I don't see anything wrong with breeders filling that need. I mean, they don't have to do it BYB style.

Because really you could probably also find an awesome agility or obedience or what-have-you dog sitting in a shelter right now, too. So I don't think breeders need to be limited to those that are focusing on producing dogs that do "things".

But, this is the point of view of a person that prefers going to breeders... but is strictly looking for a companion. No sports or shows or whatnot. What is wrong with me wanting the support of a breeder? Wanting to know the health problems in my dog's relatives, or what their temperaments are like?

No one ever said it was less worthy. I consider a good pet just as useful and worthy of being bred as a show dog or working dog. However... Shelters are full of pets. That's why you shouldn't purposely breed more. Not because they aren't "worthy", but because they are being murdered due to their over abundance.

IMO, its because there are ALWAYS pet quality dogs in a litter or dogs available to pet homes..dogs that have WONDERFUL health and temperament because of the work the breeders do. I see no reason one should breed for what is always going to exist in a well bred litter.

I do nothing with my dogs but just have pets. "Just pets" is not a slam or less worthy but yes, I do not think that is enough to validate breeding them.

This.

The thing is, when people breed for show or for work or for sport, they're... not necessarily selecting for traits that make good pets. Some breeds have show lines selected for traits like exaggerated wrinkling or extreme coat that are a pain for pet people to keep up with. Working bred dogs are often very drivey and too much dog to be a plain pet, and in fact many pet people are advised to avoid working-bred dogs because the dogs need more exercise and stimulation than the "average" dog. Sport bred dogs have the same problem.

Pet people are a bigger market than any other one. My philosophy when it comes to dog breeding is that if you are reliably placing your dogs in permanent homes--if there is enough demand for your dogs that you can find buyers for all your puppies before the litter is born, and you keep track of your puppies and know that they are staying in the homes you place them in--awesome, you're not contributing to the problem of unwanted dogs. There are a lot more homes for well-bred, health-guaranteed, stable-temperament dogs with medium to low drive than there are homes for high-drive, high-intelligence dogs that are great for sport homes (or working tasks). Creating types of dogs that are in high demand from responsible people--even pet only people--is not contributing to the problem of unwanted dogs.

Again, you can pose the same problem: If good breeders don't create these dogs, where are they supposed to come from? I can tell you that a working- or a sport-bred dog does not necessarily make a good pet, and conformation doesn't necessarily select for an animal that is easy to take care of, either--particularly in terms of grooming, where coats that require a ton of care seem to rule the day among breeds that aren't smooth or short coated. I see nothing wrong with breeding for the pet market assuming that you really are producing dogs that are genetically healthy and well-suited to the homes you find for them, and that demand is high enough that you can easily find homes for every dog you produce.

Why does breeding for show suddenly make things a-okay? It makes no sense to me. You can breed for health, temperament, and a sound structure without breeding for show.

No, you cannot find 'dogs of all shapes and sizes and colors' in shelters. You just can't. I never saw a single papillon or sheltie enter the shelter I worked at. Not a single one. Small dogs? You're going on a waiting list. That's not even touching on finding dogs of the temperament you want, which is even more important.

Im going to get a lot of hate for this, but a well bred dog is also, in most situations, a BETTER dog than a rescue dog. What do we tell people who are dead set on breeder dogs? Pick your breeder carefully, or this this this this and this are what you are most likely going to end up with. A whole slew of health and behavioral problems stemming from poor genetics, poor rearing, and poor managing. These, these byb dogs, these poor health, poor genetics, poor rearing, these are the dogs that are in shelters. Yeah you might get lucky and get a really amazing dog that won the genetic russian roulette, but most are exactly what we warn people away from. Badly bred. If all someone wants is "a dog", then thats great. If someone wants a really nice dog, a stable dog with excellent health that never has any issues and goes everywhere and is a piece of cake to own and train, and dies of old age, its NOT likely theyre going to get such an issue-free baggage-free specimen from a byb. Which is where rescues get THEIRS. Dogs dont magically appear out of thin air in a rescue kennel run-- they came from somewhere. And that somehow is a really abysmal breeder somewhere out there producing crappy dogs that we all tell people to run away from

This is why its not a valid choice for many people, and no one should be made to feel guilty because they dont want a poorly bred byb dog.

This. Absolutely this.