Returning a dog to the breeder - Questions/Rant

Barbara!

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Inability to produce a healthy looking pic from that time, refusal to post vet records, and refusal to do something as simple as unselecting a box on a website is honestly enough proof for me.

Do those things and maybe I'll change my mind but right now looks more like someone doesn't want the facts known.
There are no facts, there is no proof.

She didn't refuse to do anything. Her vet is 30+ minutes away, and it was 10 o clock at night. I don't really constitute that as refusal.

As I said earlier, there is just as much "proof" from the breeder as there is from Teal.
 
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Well FWIW I don't think it was done maliciously, either. But neglect doesn't have to be malicious. In fact, more often than not I think neglect isn't malicious but more of a "path of least resistance" kind of thing until bad becomes normal. And allowing a puppy to get into that condition is neglect in my book.
 
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Well FWIW I don't think it was done maliciously, either. But neglect doesn't have to be malicious. In fact, more often than not I think neglect isn't malicious but more of a "path of least resistance" kind of thing until bad becomes normal. And allowing a puppy to get into that condition is neglect in my book.
Agreed.
 

darkchild16

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There are no facts, there is no proof.

She didn't refuse to do anything. Her vet is 30+ minutes away, and it was 10 o clock at night. I don't really constitute that as refusal.

As I said earlier, there is just as much "proof" from the breeder as there is from Teal.
Teal wont do whats necessary to show the time date for one. The puppy doesnt look healthy in those pictures. EXIF data does not get faked (at least that I have ever heard of) and to top it off a PUPPY cant fake its age. ESPECIALLY a large breed.
 

yoko

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There are no facts, there is no proof.

She didn't refuse to do anything. Her vet is 30+ minutes away, and it was 10 o clock at night. I don't really constitute that as refusal.

As I said earlier, there is just as much "proof" from the breeder as there is from Teal.
The breeder has pics of the dog and vet records. I'm sorry I'm not super record keeper but I have all the vet records for both of my dogs. Even if I lost them I could email over for more copies.

So while you jumped in this thread convinced teal did nothing wrong, for me based on the fact that they can't even provide a single pic when the breeder has pics with the date info and vet records which teal continues to refuse to produce I totally am on the breeders side right now.
 

Barbara!

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Where are these vet records? I haven't seen any. And once again, Teal did not refuse to produce anything. That logic makes no sense. My vet office is closed in the middle of the night...idk about yours.
 

~Jessie~

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I am doing my best to give the dog at least basic care - but without giving the full details on the dog it's tough to explain just how hard it is to do anything with this animal. There is a very certain type of dog that works in my household and with my personality/methods of training - this dog, is the EXACT opposite and even the smallest interactions with it are hell because the dog fundamentally does not "get it." But, I'm trying :(


For the record - I have no problem with the Fila-side of the temperament of this dog. That is not my issue with him. He is actually an incredibly sweet, responsive puppy. In fact - he is beyond sweet and responsive. He is incredibly soft (temperament wise) with me. For those of you who apparently know me OH SO WELL - you know that I don't work well with soft-temperament dogs. I didn't comprehend the degree of softness Filas have with their owners, having never owned one and only seeing Filas from the "I'm a stranger" side of it. So excuse the hell out of me for recognizing that the dog is not a proper fit for me and my home, and trying to do the responsible thing by returning it to its breeder ;)
I don't think the neglect was done maliciously. Reading Teal's posts in the beginning of this thread show she wanted nothing to do with the dog, though. She referred to him as "it." She mentioned it was "tough" to give the dog basic care (basic care, to me, means food and water at the very least). Judging by the pictures from both parties (Teal's shots from 2 days before Dianna took him, and Dianna's shots from the day she took him), the puppy looked emanciated.

I've looked at Dianna's photos from the day the puppy went to live with Teal, and there is a night and day difference in that puppy's appearance. He had a shiny coat, bright eyes, puppy fat, etc. Since Dianna said the puppy gained 28lbs in the 2 weeks after she retrieved him from Teal (and the updated pictures from Dianna do not show an overweight dog), it's quite obvious that dog was being starved.

Most often, neglect ISN'T done on purpose. Look at all of the people who get in over their heads by rescuing pets- just turn on Animal Planet and watch Animal Hoarders and you'll see how much these people "love" their pets. There was a woman who gave up her HOME for her 150 rabbits. She lived in a camper in the backyard because the rabbits took over her house. The home was disgusting, the roof leaked, there wasn't any power, and those poor rabbits were living in squalor. And she REFUSED to rehome any of them because she was giving them such a wonderful life.
 

yoko

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How about this teal puts in the effort needed to simply uncheck a box and I'll put in the effort to get the vet papers posted.

I'm not the one who has to convince anyone remember?
 

Whisper

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Well, wow.

Most people in this thread have been sitting here waiting to hear something that proves that she didn't do this. There has been digging by people here to try and find the truth but so far Teal has done nothing, at least from what I've seen to make me find fault in what has been presented by Red Chrome.

It makes no sense to me and Teal hasn't been very forthcoming with a logical explanation for why this puppy looks like this the day he went back to the breeder. She says she doesn't know why he looks like that in those pictures but honestly, that really isn't convincing to me nor is enough. Neither has the attitude she has for the puppy. I don't think I remember her even calling him by name in this thread yet and I'll be honest, while that's purely emotional on my part I find it pretty telling.

I'm willing to be first in line to apologize if it proves to be fabricated. But so far I'm not seeing much that says it is.
I am having a similar emotional response as you. There seems to be some sort of disgust directed at this puppy. How on earth could any interaction with that lovely boy be "hell?" Not to mention the frequent references to him as an "it."

I am loath to accuse someone of starving their dog, and Teal's dogs have always looked fantastic to me in photos. Except this puppy. I guess I'm also sensitive to it, because when Fable was sick she got very, very skinny, and I had someone I've known almost my entire life angrily asking if I fed her. That hurt.

But I don't see any reason for the breeder to lie about receiving the dog from Teal in this condition.
 

Barbara!

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How about this teal puts in the effort needed to simply uncheck a box and I'll put in the effort to get the vet papers posted.

I'm not the one who has to convince anyone remember?
But yet you are condemning her for being unable to post vet records when the breeder hasn't either. No double standards here, please.
 

kady05

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Does anyone else find it a little odd that the breeder waited until 14 months later (pup went back Aug. '11, it is now Oct. '12) to share this information with anyone? I know quite a few breeders, and if ANY pup of theirs was returned in that condition, they'd be blasting it all over the place.

What breeder takes that long to reply to an email? I assume the Fila community it pretty tight nit.. how did no one hear about this and say anything when it actually happened?

The whole situation is just weird. I'm not saying I'm okay with a pup ending up like that, but I don't know.. just strange that it would take so long for this info. to come out.
 

Romy

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There are no facts, there is no proof.

She didn't refuse to do anything. Her vet is 30+ minutes away, and it was 10 o clock at night. I don't really constitute that as refusal.

As I said earlier, there is just as much "proof" from the breeder as there is from Teal.
It's also been explained to her how to restore the time stamps to her photos, which hasn't been done. Nothing has been done.

The whole start of this thread is weird.

First, Teal posted asking for advice on how to contact an unresponsive breeder, but didn't post the breeder's name. She said she'd talked to the breeder on the phone a week ago and not heard anything back. Understandable if she wanted to give the breeder some privacy.

So in the interest of helping her contact the breeder (which she asked for advice on) people easily dig up breeders name and start posting her contact info. She gets upset about that.

People advise her to send snail mail notices to the breeder and she goes on with a long excuse about how she doesn't know the breeder's mailing address and has only been to her house.

People post the mailing address for her, which they found on the breeder's website listed under CONTACT INFO (seriously? how hard is it to find that when you've supposedly been desperate to make contact for a week?) OP makes a bunch more excuses.

Someone privately advises the breeder about the situation, then the breeder drives several hours to go pick up her puppy. Finds it's in awful condition. Takes photos of the awful condition (which are timestamped corresponding with the date of pickup as PROOF), takes the puppy to the vet, and then to his new home where he proceeds to gain 28 lbs over the course of the next two weeks.

Then everything is quiet until the breeder speaks up about the abuse her puppy suffered and supplies evidence of his condition.

Just looking at the beginning of the thread, it feels like Teal knew he wasn't in great shape and was trying to start something to cover her butt in case pics came out. The whole tone of the original post was "well I tried so hard to get him back to his breeder, his breeder is so unresponsive, what an irresponsible person, la la la," Notice how everybody found different options for contacting the breeder and all she does is make excuses about why and how that doesn't work for her? And how fast the breeder jumped on it and pulled the puppy when she found out?
 

Red Chrome

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Not as a vet tech, but as someone who has raised Filas and helped with rescue:

It's entirely possible that a Fila pup who has bonded would mourn and refuse to eat after being separated from their person, but it's not going to happen in a matter of a couple of days, and, honestly, they are such survivors that it's unlikely those instincts, particularly as pup, wouldn't kick in and get them eating, and, from the later photos by the breeder he's thriving now. Thankfully. There is also that Fila metabolism -- the one that enabled the breed to survive in an extremely impoverished region on far less than ideal rations for unknown generations.

Does that mean Teal purposely starved him? Not necessarily, and, frankly, that doesn't really add up for me.

It's entirely possible that he started going downhill with Teal because she did not have the bond with him and he felt emotionally rebuffed. I know it sounds nuts, but it's the truth. It's how these dogs are. They are creatures of extremes and there is nothing as important to them, even from their earliest stages, as their people. That's one of the reasons it's so important to make sure you are ready for the depth of commitment necessary when you take a Fila puppy home. What will cause another puppy frustration, but will be forgotten in a few moments will break a Fila's heart.

Is the Fila puppy in this photo way too thin? Yes. Absolutely. Is there neglect? It would appear so.

Does that mean it was done purposely, out of malice? Not necessarily. I don't know, and looking at her other dogs in the photo I have to ask why would someone purposely abuse one puppy?

And why would you take photos of the puppy you were purposely abusing/neglecting?

Why would you post openly about sending him back to the breeder if you were purposely neglecting/abusing the pup?

It does make me feel extremely sad, to think of him feeling so bereft, seeing the anxious expression on his face in that photo. The best thing that could have happened was for him to be returned to his breeder.
Good post. I do not know the breed and have very little passing knowledge of them other than they are pretty,majestic looking dogs of mastiff type.

I never once said this was done intentionally but it did happen. If a puppy was going down hill then he needed more care till he was able to go somewhere that could and did turn him around.
 
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The Fila community is . . . odd. And is used to keeping things close to the vest. Secretive, even. It's the nature of the beast. Part of it is being extremely protective of the breed, coupled with a natural intensity and reticence. Part of it is because things can get really nasty really fast and there's always one of the fringers who wouldn't hesitate to jump up and start pointing fingers at her for placing the pup in a "bad home" to start with.
 

~Jessie~

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It's also been explained to her how to restore the time stamps to her photos, which hasn't been done. Nothing has been done.

The whole start of this thread is weird.

First, Teal posted asking for advice on how to contact an unresponsive breeder, but didn't post the breeder's name. She said she'd talked to the breeder on the phone a week ago and not heard anything back. Understandable if she wanted to give the breeder some privacy.

So in the interest of helping her contact the breeder (which she asked for advice on) people easily dig up breeders name and start posting her contact info. She gets upset about that.

People advise her to send snail mail notices to the breeder and she goes on with a long excuse about how she doesn't know the breeder's mailing address and has only been to her house.

People post the mailing address for her, which they found on the breeder's website listed under CONTACT INFO (seriously? how hard is it to find that when you've supposedly been desperate to make contact for a week?) OP makes a bunch more excuses.

Someone privately advises the breeder about the situation, then the breeder drives several hours to go pick up her puppy. Finds it's in awful condition. Takes photos of the awful condition (which are timestamped corresponding with the date of pickup as PROOF), takes the puppy to the vet, and then to his new home where he proceeds to gain 28 lbs over the course of the next two weeks.

Then everything is quiet until the breeder speaks up about the abuse her puppy suffered and supplies evidence of his condition.

Just looking at the beginning of the thread, it feels like Teal knew he wasn't in great shape and was trying to start something to cover her butt in case pics came out. The whole tone of the original post was "well I tried so hard to get him back to his breeder, his breeder is so unresponsive, what an irresponsible person, la la la," Notice how everybody found different options for contacting the breeder and all she does is make excuses about why and how that doesn't work for her? And how fast the breeder jumped on it and pulled the puppy when she found out?
Agreed!
 

Miakoda

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Some people belong to the breed of the month club.

Look....a gamebred APBT! I need one of those! Now I'm in!!!

Wait! People are fawning over those built dual registered AST/APBTs! I gotta get me one!

A Bull Terrier? WHAT?!?! I must have one!

Wow.....Salukis are super rare! Sign me up, sista!

Dude. That's one of those fabled Filas! I'm gonna get me one, too! Hey, everybody! Look at meeeeeee!!!!!!

Hmmm....the Malinois sure seems to be the new cool talked-about breed. Hey, you! I wanna buy a puppy!
 

Red Chrome

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I do know the breeder also had a major surgery too. That could explain some of the time loss.
 

Red Chrome

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Some people belong to the breed of the month club.

Look....a gamebred APBT! I need one of those! Now I'm in!!!

Wait! People are fawning over those built dual registered AST/APBTs! I gotta get me one!

A Bull Terrier? WHAT?!?! I must have one!

Wow.....Salukis are super rare! Sign me up, sista!

Dude. That's one of those fabled Filas! I'm gonna get me one, too! Hey, everybody! Look at meeeeeee!!!!!!

Hmmm....the Malinois sure seems to be the new cool talked-about breed. Hey, you! I wanna buy a puppy!
Great Post Mia!!!
 

Barbara!

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Some people belong to the breed of the month club.

Look....a gamebred APBT! I need one of those! Now I'm in!!!

Wait! People are fawning over those built dual registered AST/APBTs! I gotta get me one!

A Bull Terrier? WHAT?!?! I must have one!

Wow.....Salukis are super rare! Sign me up, sista!

Dude. That's one of those fabled Filas! I'm gonna get me one, too! Hey, everybody! Look at meeeeeee!!!!!!

Hmmm....the Malinois sure seems to be the new cool talked-about breed. Hey, you! I wanna buy a puppy!
OH LOOK,

A completely off topic post attacking Teal personally. Totally productive and it totally proves your point!
 

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