Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

Miakoda

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I was on my iphone, so I couldn't (wouldn't) go into further detail. But I'm on my computer now. Mwuahahahahaha....... :D

Anyway, y'all are correct that it can be said that dogs are no longer needed to hunt. They are still very beneficial, and serve a very important role whether it be sniffing out game, flushing out prey, or catching/holding game, but no, they aren't thechnically "needed".

But you'd have to expand on that. Are dogs actually need to guard flocks? Nope. Humans w/guns can take turns being on guard-duty. Dogs aren't needed to flush out fowl, retrieve fowl, tree coons, or anything else. We don't need them for protection, so not only should they not be used for such, why bother to train them in such avenues at all? To go further, horses are no longer needed either. We have ATVs now, so there's no need for a rancher to use a horse. We have bicycles, cars, and whatever else, so there's no reason whatsoever to ride a horse. .........................I could go on, and PETA has. This is exactly where their train of thought goes. It's about not needing to do use animals in any such manner/way anymore, so therefore we shouldn't force them to do so. Basically, we should just feed them and love them and let them be pretty.

I don't know about y'all, but I've had a few dogs that were more than happy sleeping in bed, relocating to the couch in the morning, going outside to potty, coming in and eating, and then getting back in bed. I've had some that were fine with daily 2 miles walks or walk/jogs and some play sessions of fetch thrown into their day. And I've had more that still needed more. They needed to work. They needed constant mental stimulation, and much more physical work than I could provide by just nice, sweet walks and playing tug. One of my problems now is that TB is 8, and I'm too busy to hunt. He's not in the physical condition he used to be, and I don't have the time to get him there and hunt with him. And it shows. You can walk him all day long. You can exercise him with a flirt pole. You can give him access to a spring pole. But he's still frustrated. He wants to take off in the woods behind my house(I've got a fox and bobcat that live behind our property, and both animals keep coming up by my house and leaving presents). He wants to GO. Yes, he's happy right now, but he's definitely not as content as he used to be when he was being used for hunting at least once a month. He's a dog that was happiest when he was a working dog first, and a pet second (or at least in my opinion as his owner).

ETA:

Is the answer to just breed all working dogs away from their original purpose, and do so by selective breeding to remove the associated characteristics (including prey drive, drive, and physical characteristics that relate to enabling the dog to perform such activity/job)? Or do we just cry foul with certain breeds and force those breeds to change, while allowing others to remain the same? Do we turn all dogs into fashion pets, because that is what will appeal them to the masses and make them more easily handled by those owners?

Do we no longer ride our horses? Should ranchers be forced to use their ATVs at all times? Do we abolish horse racing, show jumping, and eventing? What's the purpose of endurance riding with your Arabian? We have cars now.

It's quite interesting, but the great divide exists in horse owners between owners who work and/or compete with their horses and those who breed and raise strictly halter horses. And have you see the difference between a halter-bred Arab and one still bred to the old standard? What about a halter-bred QH compared to its working ranch counterpart?
 
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stafinois

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Yes, if the purpose is to eradicate pests, why are we worrying about playing fair? If you have a rodent or insect infestation, is fairness a consideration?

A lot of people bring up the whole "around people" thing. I'll admit, I've never gone hog hunting. But, I've watched lots of videos and looked at a lot of photographs and they all look pretty remote. People hunt other animals (not a big hog problem here other than recent escapees) near homes and small towns here in Iowa. Is a hog that much faster than a deer? I find that hard to believe.

There seems to be a lot of excuses being made in favor of the intrepid and traditional method of hunting hogs that just don't make logical sense. If people can hunt deer and bear just as close to civilization, why not hogs? If people manage to bowhunt hogs, what makes killing them so difficult with a gun?
 

Pops2

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Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for hunting and I've owned my fair share of hunting dogs/"real APBTs" if you're counting hog dogs. But you do realize that a) hunting doesn't prove deep gameness, so your logic that only game tested dogs are APBTs "but hunting counts" is flawed right out of the starting gate, and b) this is 2012, not 1812...hunting with dogs is no longer necessary to the survival of most people in western society, so what exactly are we getting out of setting dogs on bear (in terms of breedworthiness) aside from having something to brag about, and just because we can? Again, in case anyone missed it, I'm all for hunting with or without dogs. But let's be completely honest, most people hunt with dogs as a hobby, because it's entertaining for them to watch the dog work and/or work with the dog. Same reason people do ringsport, or weightpull. It's not a JOB, it's a SPORT. I enjoy watching rugged working terriers, like Jagds, do their so-called "jobs"... but terms like "honest work" and "purpose" are subjective because in almost all cases we don't NEED dogs to do the work anymore. It's all nostalgia.
i said i was willing to compromise based on the fact that matching is illegal & not many people can afford to send their dogs to Japan. under the right circumstances a dog can be proven game by a a wild animal but the occassion is so rare as to be statistically nonexistant. it's kind of a poor test is better than no test (equivalent to buying an ibizan or pharoah from lure coursing champs because you can't find a breeder that hunts or participates in open field coursing).

hunting is absolutely a job & a necessary one
1. the ONLY means of 100% EFFECTIVE control of pest populations is poison. BUT because poisons have a TON of adverse consequences most people make good use of the triple whammy: trap (majority), bait & shoot and dogs (the most effective way to consistantly get your older wiser breeders that maintain the stability of the population)
2. for some animals that need to be taken alive for research purposes (mt lions, lynx etc) dogs are the MOST effective way of acquiring the research specimens and they allow for targeting specific age groups & sexes w/o the risk of injury by traps. for example if your research is centered around juvenile males you can ID sex at the tree and take the dogs away w/ the cat unharmed.
3. a great many hunters will "fire" the dog if it won't or can't do the job. sometimes that mean hard cull & sometimes that means giving them away to be someone's pet, but either way they are not eating off his dime.
 

stafinois

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I don't know about y'all, but I've had a few dogs that were more than happy sleeping in bed, relocating to the couch in the morning, going outside to potty, coming in and eating, and then getting back in bed. I've had some that were fine with daily 2 miles walks or walk/jogs and some play sessions of fetch thrown into their day. And I've had more that still needed more. They needed to work. They needed constant mental stimulation, and much more physical work than I could provide by just nice, sweet walks and playing tug. One of my problems now is that TB is 8, and I'm too busy to hunt. He's not in the physical condition he used to be, and I don't have the time to get him there and hunt with him. And it shows. You can walk him all day long. You can exercise him with a flirt pole. You can give him access to a spring pole. But he's still frustrated. He wants to take off in the woods behind my house(I've got a fox and bobcat that live behind our property, and both animals keep coming up by my house and leaving presents). He wants to GO. Yes, he's happy right now, but he's definitely not as content as he used to be when he was being used for hunting at least once a month. He's a dog that was happiest when he was a working dog first, and a pet second (or at least in my opinion as his owner).

There are a lot of things that you can do with your dog that fits between nothing and hunting hogs that will be just as, if not more, mentally stimulating.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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I was on my iphone, so I couldn't (wouldn't) go into further detail. But I'm on my computer now. Mwuahahahahaha....... :D

Anyway, y'all are correct that it can be said that dogs are no longer needed to hunt. They are still very beneficial, and serve a very important role whether it be sniffing out game, flushing out prey, or catching/holding game, but no, they aren't thechnically "needed".

But you'd have to expand on that. Are dogs actually need to guard flocks? Nope. Humans w/guns can take turns being on guard-duty. Dogs aren't needed to flush out fowl, retrieve fowl, tree coons, or anything else. We don't need them for protection, so not only should they not be used for such, why bother to train them in such avenues at all? To go further, horses are no longer needed either. We have ATVs now, so there's no need for a rancher to use a horse. We have bicycles, cars, and whatever else, so there's no reason whatsoever to ride a horse. .........................I could go on, and PETA has. This is exactly where their train of thought goes. It's about not needing to do use animals in any such manner/way anymore, so therefore we shouldn't force them to do so. Basically, we should just feed them and love them and let them be pretty.

I don't know about y'all, but I've had a few dogs that were more than happy sleeping in bed, relocating to the couch in the morning, going outside to potty, coming in and eating, and then getting back in bed. I've had some that were fine with daily 2 miles walks or walk/jogs and some play sessions of fetch thrown into their day. And I've had more that still needed more. They needed to work. They needed constant mental stimulation, and much more physical work than I could provide by just nice, sweet walks and playing tug. One of my problems now is that TB is 8, and I'm too busy to hunt. He's not in the physical condition he used to be, and I don't have the time to get him there and hunt with him. And it shows. You can walk him all day long. You can exercise him with a flirt pole. You can give him access to a spring pole. But he's still frustrated. He wants to take off in the woods behind my house(I've got a fox and bobcat that live behind our property, and both animals keep coming up by my house and leaving presents). He wants to GO. Yes, he's happy right now, but he's definitely not as content as he used to be when he was being used for hunting at least once a month. He's a dog that was happiest when he was a working dog first, and a pet second (or at least in my opinion as his owner).
While I do shockingly support hunting with dogs, my rat terrier is from a hunting kennel & my last foster was placed with a hunter, I would love to see one discussion go by on this topic without dramatically throwing around PeTA as if anyone who dares question hunting is instantly a full fledged member of ALF.

Also, do you really believe my dogs exist solely for their looks? Have you seen how ugly some of my dogs are?

Have you tried mental stimulation? Training sessions, work to eat toys, scenting, etc, IMO with hyperactive high drive malinois the more physical exercise you give the more of a monster you create, the more balanced approach of mental and physical exercise (which would be met with hunting as previously done I assume) the more relaxed the dogs become (okay, this is theoretical for Backup, he's never been calm).
 

cliffdog

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And return of the Ribbons are so easy to achieve and sporting dogs are a lesser dog to a "working" dog.

From someone with how many titles and accomplishments?

It gets very old.

Lets be honest, there is a lot more that goes into sporting than you have any idea of.

Validity of hog dogs was just stated as "unless you're a pack hunter..." In the "from the outside looking in your can't understand it, from the inside looking out you can't explain it" mantra, so lets take a step back from demeaning sporting dogs.
I supposed I should have said rosettes? I was referring to show dogs, not sport dogs. But no, I do not think agility tests a dog like hunting hogs does.
 

stafinois

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While I do shockingly support hunting with dogs, my rat terrier is from a hunting kennel & my last foster was placed with a hunter, I would love to see one discussion go by on this topic without dramatically throwing around PeTA as if anyone who dares question hunting is instantly a full fledged member of ALF.

I just freed a bunch of mink 15 minutes ago.

Go me!
 

CharlieDog

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NO! Do you have any idea how long it took me to dress them in little outfits???
Okay, I snorted.

Knox would like to volunteer to help hunt mink. He thinks he'd be very good at it. Or is he supposed to be bad at it? Or just sit on the couch, because he'd really like to eat them, thankyouverymuch.
 

Miakoda

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While I do shockingly support hunting with dogs, my rat terrier is from a hunting kennel & my last foster was placed with a hunter, I would love to see one discussion go by on this topic without dramatically throwing around PeTA as if anyone who dares question hunting is instantly a full fledged member of ALF.

I never started "dramatically" throwing around PETA. But it's quite the slippery slope, and even more so when what one person wants doesn't affect them personally...just others.

And I don't mind questiong hunting. I don't like hearing assumptions about what hunters "really" think or feel or do, especially when one has never hunted before.

You know, I know some people who believe hunting hogs with dogs is more humane because it puts the hog on equal playing field, with the hog always having the opportunity to escape.


Also, do you really believe my dogs exist solely for their looks? Have you seen how ugly some of my dogs are?

Nope. And I don't think your dogs are ugly.

Have you tried mental stimulation? Training sessions, work to eat toys, scenting, etc, IMO with hyperactive high drive malinois the more physical exercise you give the more of a monster you create, the more balanced approach of mental and physical exercise (which would be met with hunting as previously done I assume) the more relaxed the dogs become (okay, this is theoretical for Backup, he's never been calm).

I've always done obedience work at home, and some with a local trainer. He passed away a few years ago, and since my number of dogs has dwindled over the years as they've advanced in age, I never bothered to find another. And I used to keep a freezer full of stuffed whatevers, and keep toys around that kept them entertained and thinking (although none of my APBTs were going to be the next Newton or Einstein).
My replies in red.
 

stafinois

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But if there's no need, why would or should we?

You were talking about how frustrated he was living as just a pet, so I guess I wrongly assumed that maybe you would want to do something to relieve the frustration if hunting isn't an option at this point.

My Malinois and AmStaf haven't been content to be just house dogs going for walks, so I do stuff with them to give them outlets for that frustration.
 
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the breed attracts undesirable people to own it. I'm not trying to judge people, but when I see a pit bull walking down the street, 9 times out of 10 they don't appear to be upstanding citizens.
Hey! I might resemble that remark! I just got back from a 2+ mile walk with Tallulah ;)

And now I'm trying to catch up on this thread before I take Kharma for one.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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I recommend the kong wobblers, they're tough enough for my pit bulls and can hold 2 cups of kibble which can take 15-20 minutes to empty and gives you some peace.

I've shockingly been on more than one hunt, of varying pests. I also have some close friends who are hunters. I don't think it's the life for me, I had my chance to look around in it as a kid and it never stuck as something I wanted to do. I get softer as I age too, I doubt I could stomach it anyway.
 

Pops2

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Yes, if the purpose is to eradicate pests, why are we worrying about playing fair? If you have a rodent or insect infestation, is fairness a consideration?

A lot of people bring up the whole "around people" thing. I'll admit, I've never gone hog hunting. But, I've watched lots of videos and looked at a lot of photographs and they all look pretty remote. People hunt other animals (not a big hog problem here other than recent escapees) near homes and small towns here in Iowa. Is a hog that much faster than a deer? I find that hard to believe.

There seems to be a lot of excuses being made in favor of the intrepid and traditional method of hunting hogs that just don't make logical sense. If people can hunt deer and bear just as close to civilization, why not hogs? If people manage to bowhunt hogs, what makes killing them so difficult with a gun?
you are absolutely right eradication has nothing to do with being fair. but the most effective means are not always legal. typically w/ a bad infestation of hogs you do two things first.
trap-ideally w/ a repeating trap but cages & snares for the ones that figure out how to jump or climb out of the repeaters
bait & shoot- usually only works a couple of times before survivors stop coming to the bait AND teach their shoats to avoid it too. the ideal bait & shoot uses $5000-10000 kahles night scopes, low intensity red or amber spotlights and silenced rifles or dampened large bore PCP pnuematic rifles. unfortunately in a most of localities only the federal USDA guys are allowed to spotlight or use silenced rifles or pnuematic rifles even for hogs. for example in northern AZ near st george UT is a feral hog population. i can use the spotlight but NOT if i have any kind of projectile weapon on my person or in my vehicle.which leaves spotlighting w/ dogs
but hogs are extremely smart and when you've trapped & shot all you can you switch to dogs. you start w/1 bay dog and fast shooting accurate carbine preferably 30 caliber or larger. but eventually they learn not to stop running & fighting, so you add more hard baydogs that can stop them and will run split races & catch dogs you can turn out from the truck (like a leggy bulldog w/ a lot of bottom and no DA). then finally you switch to running catchdogs that can also find their own.

OTH not all hog hunting is really eradication even if they try to call it that, it's still just sport & everyone has different ideas of what is sporting. for me it isn't sporting unless the animal has a chance of killing me back, so i hunt hogs & deer w/ a knife & bear w/a spear (and plan to go to a knife when i am more comfortable).
 

cliffdog

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I recommend the kong wobblers, they're tough enough for my pit bulls and can hold 2 cups of kibble which can take 15-20 minutes to empty and gives you some peace.
Just be careful with those. My stupid dog slings it all over the house and it slammed into an end table with some photos on it, they all came falling off the table and a lot of the glass in the frames broke. The wobbler's an outside toy now. :p
 
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I agree with Adrianne. While I can't say that there is nothing wrong with the breed, a quick look around tells you otherwise, I fear that the breed is stuck, and likely doomed. I see a lot of gamebred dogs that are so ridiculously soft, if not outright shy, and wonder what is the purpose of such a dog? A dog like that can sometimes make a nice pet if it never leaves the property, but the fact that its hell on other dogs doesn't necessarily translate to being able to persevere against adversity outside the box.

What is the purpose of a dog that can fight another with great skill, but can do nothing else? But then when fanciers start getting into obedience, agility, IPO, etc, they are changing/ruining the breed. I say, if the breed is going to survive, it needs to adapt. There was nothing "wrong" with our hunter/gatherer ancestors, but we had to evolve. So does the APBT. The alternative is extinction.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.†~ Charles Darwin
Thank you for this. This is exactly the argument I've found myself making regarding the Fila and why I have worked so hard with Kharma to prove that they CAN adapt to life in the modern world -- and enjoy a great life in many environments. There are quite a few breeders and their adherents out there who firmly believe that anyone who has keeps a Fila anyplace but a remote farm is Satan incarnate.

The APBT and Fila breeds are so different, but in a weird way advocates for both face an eerily similar fight.
 

stafinois

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Just be careful with those. My stupid dog slings it all over the house and it slammed into an end table with some photos on it, they all came falling off the table and a lot of the glass in the frames broke. The wobbler's an outside toy now. :p

Our is outside, too. It's Stan's favorite, and it hasn't had food in it for months. I need to get him an egg.
 

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