Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

I agree with Adrianne. While I can't say that there is nothing wrong with the breed, a quick look around tells you otherwise, I fear that the breed is stuck, and likely doomed. I see a lot of gamebred dogs that are so ridiculously soft, if not outright shy, and wonder what is the purpose of such a dog? A dog like that can sometimes make a nice pet if it never leaves the property, but the fact that its hell on other dogs doesn't necessarily translate to being able to persevere against adversity outside the box.

What is the purpose of a dog that can fight another with great skill, but can do nothing else? But then when fanciers start getting into obedience, agility, IPO, etc, they are changing/ruining the breed. I say, if the breed is going to survive, it needs to adapt. There was nothing "wrong" with our hunter/gatherer ancestors, but we had to evolve. So does the APBT. The alternative is extinction.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” ~ Charles Darwin



I recently turned down a pup that was a double grandson of this dog. I just can't bring myself to risk another APBT/AmStaf in Iowa. This is not a good place for them. Luckily one of my best pals got a bitch from the litter (a clone of her mother, my fave bitch of all time), and the breeder is a friend who is keeping me up to date on the progress of the litter. Should something change in Iowa, I will have a linebred Danni pup.

So the hog-dogging isn't a good test because it's considered an uneven match. I get that. But once you prove your dog is game, then what?

I know that in other countries, they have used some amount of matching to test working dogs. I can't remember what breed or country it was, I think it was in Turkey with Akbash dogs (or Kangals perhaps), I can't remember. But they use these dogs on rural farms for different work and they do match them sometimes to test them. I don't condone dog fighting of any kind, but at least I can see the purpose. These dogs have a function.

Did the APBT of yesteryear have a function outside the box that required this much sought-after trait of gameness? In the stories I have seen told about the old dogmen, keeping the dogs as pets or doing other things with them outside of matching seems like it was an afterthought.

Well this has been educational .

See, in my humble opinion, personally, I am fine with whatever you want your dogs to be, or what you want them for (I don't necessarily condone dog fighting, but it is what it is for now). I think plenty of (laymen) people don't understand why I am interested in a specific type of dog for specific dog sports, or herding, or whatever..and I suppose that is the comparison to people wanting to keep the gamebred APBT around. I wouldn't want that type of dog, but I get it.

Now I'm not saying this is totally anyone's fault, mine or yours or the breeders or the rescues. I think there's a collective fail in part with everyone. My problem with this breed, and several other bully types (I'll stay out of the semantics) is the sheer number of dogs being produced and ending up given up again. They are nearly totally unwanted, and yet the first breed anyone can get because they are so plentiful. They are being produced to be exterminated. And then your gamebred type dog ends up with Joe Schmoe and bad things happen because they don't understand. And you know it's not even Joe Schmoe...the breed attracts undesirable people to own it. I'm not trying to judge people, but when I see a pit bull walking down the street, 9 times out of 10 they don't appear to be upstanding citizens. So yes..if you are properly managing this breed, and taking steps to make sure they don't get loose, and responsibly breeding and taking back dogs that don't work out...by all means have at it. But that's not what's happening, and it's really the downfall of the breed.

And this is almost where you can see stepping in with breeding legislation, and almost BSL, I'm not a supporter and never will be. IBut there IS a problem and unfortunately those are the solutions that people have come up with...because unless the community for those breeds can come together and figure out a way to reduce the population, that is the end result. It sucks for YOU, APBT fanciers, the good breeders, and really all breed dog people. But...what's the other solution?

Just out of morbid curiosity...what makes these 9 out of 10 Pit Bull walkers not appear to be upstanding citizens? What does an upstanding citizen look like?

Oh man, it seems like 9.9 times out of 10 around here they are hard-core rescue/ pit bull/ responsible owner advocates. Almost to a fanatical degree.

Both of these....

and LOL @ the bolded, that is so common here.

I wonder, seriously, what Denis and I look like when we walk Arnold and Shamoo around our neighborhood.

Crazed, I never owned over 60 APBTs at one time. I produced 3 litters, and on this date, I can tell you where each dog can be found. I didn't sell a single puppy, nor would I ever. I have no desire to breed puppies to sell to the general public. Ever.

If you read my posts, the number of dogs under my name account for all my personal dogs, each puppy from each litter, and every single rescue fog I took in, including dogs I picked up on the side of the road. But regardless of that list, or the fact that I WORKED at that same clinic for years as a vet tech, there's no way in hell I'll accept part of the blame. I did nothing wrong. Why should I be partly to blame, and why on earth is it ok for me to be viewed as "guilty until proven innocent"???

ETA: or did I completely misunderstand your post? That happens when I'm trying to type and bring used as a jungle gym by three rowdy children.

then it is ready to be evaluated for breedworthiness


the turks match kangals & boz because they just don't have enough wolves & for recreation. the russians & COs, the Afghans & koochee dogs same. but they are doing it as much for recreation as for testing.


NO, matching was their meat & potatoes. anything besides the box was gravy. being a loving & well mannered family pet or a good hog dog is just a pleasant extra.

The point of the quote being, "He would not bother a [soul]" meaning other dogs. Further:

Yeah.. this.

yep i sidestepped it. here's why. i believe the APBT SHOULD be synonymous w/ pit bulldog but laws & money grubbing registries prevent it. I firmly believe the ONLY CONSISTANT breedworthiness test is proving gameness in the box. Recognizing that it is illegal and not everyone has the means to send potential breeding stock to Japan (no one else legally matches cajun rules in the highly regulated fashion of the Japanese), i am willing to compromise on the dogs doing honest work like denning coyotes or badgers or killing barn coon and catching hogs or cattle. I'd like to see them worked on more difficult game like holing bobcats, catching mt lion & pinning bear for knife & spear hunters. i would not oppose matching being legalized & regulated like it is in Japan. and since none of the dogs pictured have any marks indicating honest work or matching then in MY OPINION none are "real APBTs"

That's because ADBA people are show dog people. They love the illusion that their show bred dogs can work and so they put on that their dogs, because they are lean and holler in the ring, must be far better than those show dogs. But they forget that their dog has never done anything other than show, and their dogs grandparents never did anything but show. But, wait- since their dogs lunge, they are working dogs.

Frankly I prefer the ADBA atmosphere to the AKC atmosphere but let me be frank, as much as ADBA people hoot and holler that their dogs are the REAL American Pit Bull Terrier... if I could not get a game-bred dog, I would much prefer a working-bred American Staffordshire Terrier to an ADBA show-bred APBT. Yes, ADBA APBTs weight pull, but AmStaffs weight pull also with the UKC, and they also do Agility, Obedience, Dock Dogs, etc. There is a dearth of sport dogs in the ADBA because it is beneath their "REAL" APBTs. And like Miakoda, most people who actually have true working APBTs have no need for show ribbons, their dogs do their work on the hog. So these dogs are often not registered or shown with the ADBA. A dog that catches a 300lb hog does not need to prance around a ring to prove he is worth something.

i actually agree w/this. for catching hogs you don't need a lot of dog & too much can even be a PITA.

I guess an upstanding citizen looks like someone who is walking with their pants around their hips and not around their ankles. Is walking their dog on a leash and not on a chain. Is clean cut and isn't covered in jail tattoos. Is it a stereotype? Yes. It most certainly is. Is it a stereotype that is more often than not, correct? Yes. I agree totally that most pit bull type dog owners are not "upstanding citizens".

Err... that seems rather generous in a literary sense...

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for hunting and I've owned my fair share of hunting dogs/"real APBTs" if you're counting hog dogs. But you do realize that a) hunting doesn't prove deep gameness, so your logic that only game tested dogs are APBTs "but hunting counts" is flawed right out of the starting gate, and b) this is 2012, not 1812...hunting with dogs is no longer necessary to the survival of most people in western society, so what exactly are we getting out of setting dogs on bear (in terms of breedworthiness) aside from having something to brag about, and just because we can? Again, in case anyone missed it, I'm all for hunting with or without dogs. But let's be completely honest, most people hunt with dogs as a hobby, because it's entertaining for them to watch the dog work and/or work with the dog. Same reason people do ringsport, or weightpull. It's not a JOB, it's a SPORT. I enjoy watching rugged working terriers, like Jagds, do their so-called "jobs"... but terms like "honest work" and "purpose" are subjective because in almost all cases we don't NEED dogs to do the work anymore. It's all nostalgia.

There was a very excited Golden at the dock jump today who was barking and pulling on the lead. I was thinking to myself how much he looked like an ADBA dog. That is all.

If you think hog dogs are not needed, I guess you've never had your farm torn up by a group of hogs before.

You're correct. I should have posted the second quote right out of the gate, but I couldn't find it, so I went with what I had.

Where the hell do these people live where 9 out of 10 people walking their Pit Bulls are "covered" in prison tats? And walking with your pants sagging makes you a non upstanding citizen? Ugly clothing fad != not an upstanding citizen. If that was the case, all of you people who wear those hideous Crocs are screwed.