Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

He considers an APBT and a pit bulldog two different things.

Seven, provide me with pedigrees of all the dogs pictured. You've asked a question while providing very little information, and purposefully ommitting information, in order to have someone give you the answer you want so you can say, "See? Told you so!". But it's not that simple.

The problem is that people used to stop and ask me what my APBTs were "mixed with", while fawning over my Olde English Bulldogge and saying he was a "badass pit" or "fine looking pit bull". People probably thought I was simple-minded because it got to a point where I could only stare at them in disbelief. But very few people look at a lean 40 lb APBT and believe it's truly an APBT.

Well I didn't mention "pit bulldog" anywhere in my post so I suppose if that's the case then he sidestepped the question again. I was very specifically referencing what people refer to as "real APBTs."

Thank you, this is a really good point and something I've unsuccessfully been trying to articulate. The logic is pretty circular... you need the pit to prove gameness because dogs need to be game in the pit...

LOL. Forgive me for laughing, but you throw up one of the most controversial dogs (or was he more than one dog.... opcorn: ) ever, with a picture of a muzzle, and want us to say, "Yup! He bit lots of men!".

Let me start by saying I'm a bit of a "bitch" when it comes to dogs biting humans, whether it be unprovoked or for something that a dog with a stable temperament should be allowed to handle (i.e. child trips and falls landing a foot away from dog, but dog jumps up and bites child because child fell near where dog was lying/sitting/whatever). With that said, much of the "manbiters" stories with APBTs is very much that: stories. I know people who went to Tom's yard, and stated that not a single dog had an off/sketchy temperament. Tom, who acquired Chinaman later on in the dog's life, said the dog never showed any type of aggression. Was he just saying that because he was breeding him? Or was it possible that Chinaman was treated improperly as a pup/young dog and such treatment resulted in him biting someone? Or was it that he bit his handler in the box merely as a redirection because he wanted the handler to let him go already?

Honestly, this forum is well-known for it's defending of biting dogs. So many preach to get all the facts, work through the biting event, and try to see if there was a "legitamte" reason, even if solely in the dog's mind.

So why the hipocrasy?

Then again, Mr. Indian ROM lived longer than any other dog on this planet, supposedly.........................

It is that simple. Dogs are either APBTs or not APBTs. If ANY of these dogs are not APBTs, why specifically are they not APBTs?

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=365481
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=377775
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=140311

Tahla, I'd like to ask you a question:

How many APBTs from game lines (gamebred or otherwise / linebred or scatterbred) have you personally owned? How many varying bloodlines have you had experience with?

This isn't to enter into some pissing contest or anything, because heaven knows I'm in the "minor leagues" when it comes to APBTs, but I'm really curious how much hands on experience you've really had.

I have no problem answering the question. I have only owned one, scatterbred, the dog I have now, and most of the pit bulls I have come in contact with are rescues, rehomes, with a few fight bust dogs.

Personally, if I were to ever own another pit bull, it would come from rescue. Too many good dogs are there.

Senior rescues are the best.

/shameless plug.

I thought I recognized 2 of those dogs.


While admittingly jumping ahead and stating this, you're throwing up dogs bred from game lines acting as if that's all that's floating around out there. Why didn't you throw up a dual registered AKC AST/UKC APBT with a "PR" proudly displayed in front of it's name (as if it was some big prestigious award)? A dog, whose bloodline only shows 2 "true" gamebred dogs (or gamedogs) way back in the 7th generation? Why don't you put up some pictures of the square blocks with super-blocky heads that are being paraded around with their blue ribbons for winning APBT shows?

This isn't some small issue with the dogs just only slightly varying in looks and purpose. It's huge. I'm sure we disagree on this, but I strongly believe the majority of "APBT" breeders are breeding dogs with watered down pedigrees from generations of dogs that have done absolutely nothing but have reproductive organs/genitalia and be nice and pretty.

I owned gamebred dogs and dogs with game lines. I never fought a single dog, nor would I personally do so, whether legal or illegal. I did hunt with as many as I could. Some did weight pull. A small handful were put in the showring just for fun and for me to get together with friends and other people.

And yet, if I said tomorrow I was going to go get another tight-bred Patrick's/Bolio dog, I'd get slammed...again...as some dogfighter or wanna be dogfighter. If I said I was going to go buy a dog from **insert name of well-known breeder of AST/APBT dogs that are known for the show ring and nothing but the show ring**, I'd get applauded on my good decision.

A major problem isn't the dogs themselves, but the automatic implied criminalization of people who want such dogs, even if those people have never broken a single law (not even a speeding ticket) nor had any intentions to do so.

There's a great divide amongst "pit bull" people, and one side is standing and pointing at the other side calling them "dog fighters" regardless of whether or not they ever fought a dog. The accusation is being made solely because those people, whether because of or regardless of the APBT history, want a dog from a well-known gamedog bloodline. These accusers refuse to admit that it's very possible to love the APB as it was and is without harboring secret criminal thoughts.

Not everyone wants to change the APBT. To want to change it is admitting there's something wrong with it, and there's nothing **** wrong with the APBT as it was 100 years ago or 50 years ago or 30 years ago. But thanks to people breeding all willy nilly in an effort to change it, there's a helluva lot wrong with it now.

One of those dogs is pretty strictly show bred. Is the third dog posted an APBT or not? I have yet to actually get anyone to answer this question directly. And the main reason nobody will touch this question is that, again, it forces them into a catch-22 they don't want to be in; You either have to admit that a show-bred dog is still an APBT, which then naturally opens the door to even deeper questions*...or...no dog that is shown and hasn't been tested in the box is a real APBT, but then you've knocked off a whole lot of dogs from some of the most prestigious yards in history. ETA: Or you go back to 1939 to find the Amstaff in Ace and proudly proclaim he's an Amstaff because he has Amstaff in him from 7 decades ago, which I've seen some people do, but then by that logic **** near every Colby dog on the planet is an "Amstaff."

*Now, if you agree that Ace was an APBT... How is Ace an APBT, and Flea II also an APBT, but Tacoma Danni (dual registered AKC/UKC) not an APBT?

:hail:

And the BSL freaks, PETAphiles and Dogbite.org nutballs use that and promote it. I suspect that's where a lot of it originated.

I fear you're presuming any of us would bestow a dog fighter label on anyone without provocation. I worry that more people in this breed exist with an elaborate fear of being labeled "dog fighter" than people, in this breed, who are driven to seek out dog fighters.

Truth is I find most of the, well how to label without insult?, "keep the pit in the pit bull" people are actually more often than not stuck in a conundrum. It is illegal to fight dogs but sports and hunting do not test their dogs properly nor are their dogs in theory properly suited for these scenarios (their words, not mine) so now what? We continue to breed dogs that resemble the pit bull of yesteryear (which is comically varied) and choose to bare a cross that rarely really effects the average pit bull fancier but at what cost? IMO those dogs are becoming the true shells. They can look the look, sure but can they do anything?

Now the owners on the flip side choose to rally against the bad guys who rescue or breed for modern day causes while still accepting, appreciating, and maintaining dogs that are driven, intelligent, and stoic. These bad guys get labeled with some insults such as "breed ruiners" or "witch hunters" when in fact ime these are the people being proactive, these are the people trying to save the breed, maybe not preserve in the same form but again do we really have a place for that dog and if not are you saying this dog isn't worth saving if you can't fight it?

Like others I'm on my phone so I apologize in advance for any typos and or grammar and rambling.

I suppose this is what you're asking:

I owned a puppy off of Tanya's Gr. Ch. Boogieman and Hogtown Light. I swear I thought he was a redbone coonhound pup at first (thus why he was the first dog I ever had ears cropped on...and the last). He was a great little 48 lb dog, and he turned into my main catch dog. He was an amazing hog dog!

Now, there's a large group of people that own dogs bred off of or down from Boogieman. These people have rarely allowed the dogs to get dirty, much less actually work them. They do travel and show them in ADBA quite extensively.

Now you ask, are all the dogs APBTs? Why or why not? The answer is "yes, they're all APBTs".

I bred that male to my female, a daughter of Ratliff's Ch. Butkus, and produced many fine dogs that had drive and heart and guts and brains (the brains came from the dam's side...certainly not my male. lol).

These other people are backing their dogs to other strictly show-bred dogs, with looks being the ultimate goal for the breedings.

For how long are these resulting generations of dogs, bred down two separate paths, always considered the same dog? Over time, can you grab one of those show-bred dogs and get it hunting and have it do so well, showing all the desired and necessary attributes to do so? At any time, you can take a hunting dog and put it in the show ring. It may or may not bring home that pretty blue ribbon, but for a working dog, what is the ultimate goal? A blue ribbon for it's perfectly cropped ears and square head on square body? Or a dog that can still do what it was bred to do, or at least perform in an activity that is as close as one to get to the original purpose?

There may be some paranoia that is unexplained. I don't know.

However, I am one of those people who had my home raided by not just Animal Control, but the state police as well. I know what it's like to be pushed back while a warrant is thrust in your face. I know what it's like to have an officer take your child into another room while you "accompany" an AC officer and police officer to show them all your many (4 at the time) APBTs. I know what it's like to have to get all your dogs out of their kennels, which were indoor mind you, and hold them for photographs. I know what it's like to watch another officer ransack your office for all kinds of non-existent "paraphernalia". Someone had made me a beautifully carved break stick, with an amazing swamp scene, and that was taken. My pedigrees were taken. My books, all which were bought at either Barnes and Noble or Books-A-Million, were taken.

And you know why all that happened? Because a nosy person saw I owned "pit bulls", and in that person's opinion, it was too many "pit bulls" (never mind the fact that while there were over 60 APBTs in my name, the idiot failed to realize that 3 litters were entered in name by name and many others were temporary fostered rescue dogs that I was paying to have vaccinated and spayed before they were adopted out).

And it is true that there is much accusation if you want a dog from Floyd Boudreaux, because why would a person ever "need" that type of dog unless it is for future dog fighting purposes?

There's no middle ground. People won't admit to it and allow it. People are paranoid and fearful because it truly has become a witch hunt, and one in where many of the accusers are other "pit bull" owners themselves.

Far as I'm aware...Ace wasn't a hunting dog. They do weightpull. So let me ask again, very straight forward question.

If this is the same as this:



What makes this different from this?

I did see Ace's weight pull title. Thankfully, many shows have now limited pulls to dogs only weighing 55 or 60 lbs and under. Too many people, while doing a good thing by getting into pulling with their dogs, were breeding for much larger and out of standard dogs to do so, thus...attempting to change the breed.

I have a big issue with people breeding 70-85 lb "catchweight" APBTs. I'm sorry, but I've been hog hunting since I was in my early teens, and I have many hunting friends. All of them, and myself, hunt with catch dogs weighing between 40 and 60 lbs, and 60 lbs is the larger end. The average weight of our APBTS is probably 45-50 lbs. There's not need to change, or "fix", what isn't wrong or "broken".


And you didn't answer my questions either.

Do we want working dogs? Or do we want pleasure pets? That's the ultimate question.

:hail:

Whether or not I personally like the dog, I don't get to cherry-pick and say, "it's ugly so it's not an APBT" or "it doesn't do anything but play with the owner's kids all day so it's not an APBT." That Flea II dog is a structural train wreck, and ugly as hell. It's still an APBT. I don't get to say it isn't, just because I don't personally like the dog.

I don't consider weightpull to be "work" (spoken as a breeder whose dogs all have WP titles, and we don't pull our dogs the second they qualify either...but seriously, they're pulling that weight for what, a whole 20 feet?), do I get to say that dogs who do WP aren't really APBTs?