Pre-made raw brands
- Thread starter JacksonsMom
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Nature didn't "turn" them into anything. Dogs will scavange (as will we) if hungry enough. Nature designed dogs for raw meat, bones and organs.
We have changed dogs in the way of developing breeds for specific jobs, but not changed anything about how their body works. A domestic dog is the same as a wolf today, and thousands of years ago all the way from the teeth to the way the digestives work.
Kibble has only been around for about 100 years, developed by man and only really got popular about 60 or so years ago. Raw is natural to them and been around for thousands and thousands of years.
How can man made, over cooked over processed nuggets in a bag be more natural than what they were designed to eat?
We have changed dogs in the way of developing breeds for specific jobs, but not changed anything about how their body works. A domestic dog is the same as a wolf today, and thousands of years ago all the way from the teeth to the way the digestives work.
Kibble has only been around for about 100 years, developed by man and only really got popular about 60 or so years ago. Raw is natural to them and been around for thousands and thousands of years.
How can man made, over cooked over processed nuggets in a bag be more natural than what they were designed to eat?
Did you quote the post you intended to quote?
Sounded to me like sassafras was just saying that there's no real reason that kibble would digest markedly slower than raw foods. Which makes sense if you are looking at them from a scavenger point of view...scavengers should be able to handle a wide range of crazy stuff. I'm sure the pariah dogs managed to grab and eat stale or burn bits of bread, burnt meat/fat tips, sun-dried deer excrement, etc. It's not like everything they ate along the outskirts of humans society was clean raw meat, bones, and organs...nor does it mean that their diet met all their nutritional needs, just that it sustained them long enough to reproduce.
The recurring point seems to be that some dogs can handle frequent switches and some can't. If I go a week all vegetarian and then eat a steak I'm going to get a stomach ache. Doesn't mean the steak was bad for me but that my body doesn't handle abrupt changes in diet particularly well. My spouse could go a week eating vegetarian then eat a steak, potato chips, and wash the whole concoction down with chocolate milk and feel great.
Sounded to me like sassafras was just saying that there's no real reason that kibble would digest markedly slower than raw foods. Which makes sense if you are looking at them from a scavenger point of view...scavengers should be able to handle a wide range of crazy stuff. I'm sure the pariah dogs managed to grab and eat stale or burn bits of bread, burnt meat/fat tips, sun-dried deer excrement, etc. It's not like everything they ate along the outskirts of humans society was clean raw meat, bones, and organs...nor does it mean that their diet met all their nutritional needs, just that it sustained them long enough to reproduce.
The recurring point seems to be that some dogs can handle frequent switches and some can't. If I go a week all vegetarian and then eat a steak I'm going to get a stomach ache. Doesn't mean the steak was bad for me but that my body doesn't handle abrupt changes in diet particularly well. My spouse could go a week eating vegetarian then eat a steak, potato chips, and wash the whole concoction down with chocolate milk and feel great.
According to the co-evolution theory, dogs have evolved alongside us from wolves. i.e. They were turned from wolves into dogs by selection pressures.
Dogs are not wolves. Dogs are dogs. Have you read the Siberian fox experiments? In those experiments, selectively breeding for specific behaviors led to changes in physical characteristics like ear set and coat color. It is difficult for me to believe, then, that selectively breeding for both physical and behavioral characteristics in our modern day dogs does not also results in internal physiologic effects as well. We don't know what kind of gene sets are linked.
It is becoming more and more well known that the physiology of individuals varies tremendously in terms of how many and what specific types of, just as one example, pain receptors they have. That is why morphine makes one person sick and relieves another person's pain. I have one dog that does best on kibble. I have one dog that does best on about half/half raw and kibble (which I'm told is typical for his type). I have one dog who thrives on all raw. So I'm not sure how an assertion can be made that the digestive system has somehow been magically protected from all of the genetic manipulation we've done with dogs. I suspect that our mucking about with selective breeding has created dogs with a lot of individual variations in the digestive system.
Do you think that the majority of domestic dogs had been eating primarily PMR prior to the introduction of kibble? That humans, who often were living on the raggedy edge themselves and couldn't afford to eat meat regularly, were taking care to feed their dogs PMR? Dogs got scraps and corn mush and whatever they could catch themselves. There are still people living nomadic lifestyles today who feed their dogs this way, some of them claim that their breeds actually do BETTER on what we would consider a crummy diet. The idyllic good old days, weren't. Medical care for pets is a relatively new invention, too. Doesn't mean I'm going to reject it.
Where have I said it is more natural? And why is natural automatically better, anyway? Nature doesn't care about anyone or anything living a long and healthy life. Nature only cares that someone in the species lives long enough to reproduce. There is absolutely NO natural selection pressure that I can think of to select FOR an animal to eat a diet that will carry it through to a healthy old age.
Again, I'm not arguing that raw is a bad diet. I don't think raw OR kibble is "better" or "worse" - I think that there are individuals, and inventing or parroting outlandish claims and theories to back up unproven and scientifically unsound theories does nothing in my mind to make raw feeding more accepted among the general public or even hard core dog owners.
/rant
Dogs are not wolves. Dogs are dogs. Have you read the Siberian fox experiments? In those experiments, selectively breeding for specific behaviors led to changes in physical characteristics like ear set and coat color. It is difficult for me to believe, then, that selectively breeding for both physical and behavioral characteristics in our modern day dogs does not also results in internal physiologic effects as well. We don't know what kind of gene sets are linked.
It is becoming more and more well known that the physiology of individuals varies tremendously in terms of how many and what specific types of, just as one example, pain receptors they have. That is why morphine makes one person sick and relieves another person's pain. I have one dog that does best on kibble. I have one dog that does best on about half/half raw and kibble (which I'm told is typical for his type). I have one dog who thrives on all raw. So I'm not sure how an assertion can be made that the digestive system has somehow been magically protected from all of the genetic manipulation we've done with dogs. I suspect that our mucking about with selective breeding has created dogs with a lot of individual variations in the digestive system.
Do you think that the majority of domestic dogs had been eating primarily PMR prior to the introduction of kibble? That humans, who often were living on the raggedy edge themselves and couldn't afford to eat meat regularly, were taking care to feed their dogs PMR? Dogs got scraps and corn mush and whatever they could catch themselves. There are still people living nomadic lifestyles today who feed their dogs this way, some of them claim that their breeds actually do BETTER on what we would consider a crummy diet. The idyllic good old days, weren't. Medical care for pets is a relatively new invention, too. Doesn't mean I'm going to reject it.
Where have I said it is more natural? And why is natural automatically better, anyway? Nature doesn't care about anyone or anything living a long and healthy life. Nature only cares that someone in the species lives long enough to reproduce. There is absolutely NO natural selection pressure that I can think of to select FOR an animal to eat a diet that will carry it through to a healthy old age.
Again, I'm not arguing that raw is a bad diet. I don't think raw OR kibble is "better" or "worse" - I think that there are individuals, and inventing or parroting outlandish claims and theories to back up unproven and scientifically unsound theories does nothing in my mind to make raw feeding more accepted among the general public or even hard core dog owners.
/rant
Here a link.http://preymodelraw.com/why-pmr/
And one more....http://trussel.com/prehist/news24.htm
Agreed. In fact, Cardigans are known for being relatively insensitive to what they're fed. They can do well on some pretty junky ****, probably because they're a relatively primitive breed from a very harsh place. And they were farm dogs, not pets, and expected to get by on whatever. And there are some people who feel they do best with some filler in their food. Mine does great on a more or less filler free diet, but some people do clame they need it.
I've fed raw for years and I'm still annoyed by the "oh it's magical and natural!!!" I feed raw because 1.) my potential chubster Macky maintains a healthy weight without having to be starved on it - that's how I got started feeding raw. 2.) My dogs seem to thrive on it, short and long term. 3.) I just like feeding whole, unprocessed foods and knowing exactly what goes into my dog's diet. 4.) Dental benefits, gotta say I do love this aspect. The vet can't believe Macky's 7 and never had a dental, and isn't anywhere needing one. 5.) Give a corgi a frozen chicken quarter, and she won't bark for at least 30 min.
LOL
I think "Mixing raw and kibble gives some dogs diarrhea" is pretty accurate. Just like lots of things give some dog diarrhea when they're suddenly introduced.
I've fed raw for years and I'm still annoyed by the "oh it's magical and natural!!!" I feed raw because 1.) my potential chubster Macky maintains a healthy weight without having to be starved on it - that's how I got started feeding raw. 2.) My dogs seem to thrive on it, short and long term. 3.) I just like feeding whole, unprocessed foods and knowing exactly what goes into my dog's diet. 4.) Dental benefits, gotta say I do love this aspect. The vet can't believe Macky's 7 and never had a dental, and isn't anywhere needing one. 5.) Give a corgi a frozen chicken quarter, and she won't bark for at least 30 min.
LOLI think "Mixing raw and kibble gives some dogs diarrhea" is pretty accurate. Just like lots of things give some dog diarrhea when they're suddenly introduced.
Agreed. In fact, Cardigans are known for being relatively insensitive to what they're fed. They can do well on some pretty junky ****, probably because they're a relatively primitive breed from a very harsh place. And they were farm dogs, not pets, and expected to get by on whatever. And there are some people who feel they do best with some filler in their food. Mine does great on a more or less filler free diet, but some people do clame they need it.
I've fed raw for years and I'm still annoyed by the "oh it's magical and natural!!!" I feed raw because 1.) my potential chubster Macky maintains a healthy weight without having to be starved on it - that's how I got started feeding raw. 2.) My dogs seem to thrive on it, short and long term. 3.) I just like feeding whole, unprocessed foods and knowing exactly what goes into my dog's diet. 4.) Dental benefits, gotta say I do love this aspect. The vet can't believe Macky's 7 and never had a dental, and isn't anywhere needing one. 5.) Give a corgi a frozen chicken quarter, and she won't bark for at least 30 min. LOL
I think "Mixing raw and kibble gives some dogs diarrhea" is pretty accurate. Just like lots of things give some dog diarrhea when they're suddenly introduced.
I've fed raw for years and I'm still annoyed by the "oh it's magical and natural!!!" I feed raw because 1.) my potential chubster Macky maintains a healthy weight without having to be starved on it - that's how I got started feeding raw. 2.) My dogs seem to thrive on it, short and long term. 3.) I just like feeding whole, unprocessed foods and knowing exactly what goes into my dog's diet. 4.) Dental benefits, gotta say I do love this aspect. The vet can't believe Macky's 7 and never had a dental, and isn't anywhere needing one. 5.) Give a corgi a frozen chicken quarter, and she won't bark for at least 30 min.
LOLI think "Mixing raw and kibble gives some dogs diarrhea" is pretty accurate. Just like lots of things give some dog diarrhea when they're suddenly introduced.
Honestly, I've fed Franken-prey raw for years, helped many people transition to it, and raised a puppy on it. I can't speak for others but I'm kind of past looking at links unless some weird issue arrises.
Don't assume that those who disagree with you are ignorant. We've heard the arguments, we simply don't agree. And, like you, our positions are backed by experience.
Sorry for the double post!
Don't assume that those who disagree with you are ignorant. We've heard the arguments, we simply don't agree. And, like you, our positions are backed by experience.
Sorry for the double post!
The "Raw is magical" comes from people whose dogs really really need raw. Dogs who were really sick, underweight, suffering, whatever who tried "everything" and then went to raw and had their dogs heal. For them, yes, I see how raw is magical.
My Aunts pom for example...I lost count of how many surgeries she had for bladder stones. She had some seizures, she had random bouts of really severe diarrhea etc. My aunt researched foods, switched, eventually went to prescription (blech) and was devastated because she didnt know what else to do, raw had always scared her and ith her pom being in kidney failure, the vets advised against it. Eventually she decided she was out of options and switched to raw. Pom has been fine since, has not had another seizure, no more bladder stones, she is EATING, and doing really well. So for her, yeah, I could see her saying "Raw is magical".
My Aunts pom for example...I lost count of how many surgeries she had for bladder stones. She had some seizures, she had random bouts of really severe diarrhea etc. My aunt researched foods, switched, eventually went to prescription (blech) and was devastated because she didnt know what else to do, raw had always scared her and ith her pom being in kidney failure, the vets advised against it. Eventually she decided she was out of options and switched to raw. Pom has been fine since, has not had another seizure, no more bladder stones, she is EATING, and doing really well. So for her, yeah, I could see her saying "Raw is magical".
Well obviously, as I just listed them as the reasons why I feed raw instead of kibble.
To far too many raw feeders, natural = magical. It's a logical fallacy, the appeal to nature.
I'm content to simply say my dogs thrive on it, and that's its virtues, for me, exist outside of the idea that it must be more natural. It MIGHT be, but that alone does not make it valid.
To far too many raw feeders, natural = magical. It's a logical fallacy, the appeal to nature.
I'm content to simply say my dogs thrive on it, and that's its virtues, for me, exist outside of the idea that it must be more natural. It MIGHT be, but that alone does not make it valid.
I get 1,2, & 5(work to eat toys) from kibble.
I started with raw, and said screw the labels and types, 8 years ago. I currently feed and am happy enough with kibble. I'd love to go back to smaller poop but for now cost and sensitive stomachs aren't allowing it.
Don't worry, cause I don't, our 15 and 14 and 12 and 8 year olds (plus the two 2 yo working dogs) are doing just fine.
I started with raw, and said screw the labels and types, 8 years ago. I currently feed and am happy enough with kibble. I'd love to go back to smaller poop but for now cost and sensitive stomachs aren't allowing it.
Don't worry, cause I don't, our 15 and 14 and 12 and 8 year olds (plus the two 2 yo working dogs) are doing just fine.
I get 1,2, & 5(work to eat toys) from kibble.
I started with raw, and said screw the labels and types, 8 years ago. I currently feed and am happy enough with kibble. I'd love to go back to smaller poop but for now cost and sensitive stomachs aren't allowing it.
Don't worry, cause I don't, our 15 and 14 and 12 and 8 year olds (plus the two 2 yo working dogs) are doing just fine.
I started with raw, and said screw the labels and types, 8 years ago. I currently feed and am happy enough with kibble. I'd love to go back to smaller poop but for now cost and sensitive stomachs aren't allowing it.
Don't worry, cause I don't, our 15 and 14 and 12 and 8 year olds (plus the two 2 yo working dogs) are doing just fine.
I get 1,2, & 5(work to eat toys) from kibble.
I started with raw, and said screw the labels and types, 8 years ago. I currently feed and am happy enough with kibble. I'd love to go back to smaller poop but for now cost and sensitive stomachs aren't allowing it.
Don't worry, cause I don't, our 15 and 14 and 12 and 8 year olds (plus the two 2 yo working dogs) are doing just fine.
I started with raw, and said screw the labels and types, 8 years ago. I currently feed and am happy enough with kibble. I'd love to go back to smaller poop but for now cost and sensitive stomachs aren't allowing it.
Don't worry, cause I don't, our 15 and 14 and 12 and 8 year olds (plus the two 2 yo working dogs) are doing just fine.
My parent's Wheaton lived till 17 on Alpo, of all things. :lol-sign: To say nothing of dogs on high quality kibble with involved owners.
5.) Give a corgi a frozen chicken quarter, and she won't bark for at least 30 min. LOL
LOL
Kim fits that description but I don't think raw is magical lol. It just works for her so that is what we do.
Do you get the impression some folks just like arguing? lol. You can even agree with them and be told you're wrong...amazing.
I get 1,2, & 5(work to eat toys) from kibble.
Only frozen! And keep in mind this is a 22 lb corgi, so a chicken quarter is bigger than her head. LOL Thaw it and it's gone much quicker. And if we're talking about Macky well... she has to be handfed and someone once described the experience as "putting your hand near a running lawnmower."
Luckily for me, my busiest dog (Keeva) is also the slowest chewer. I caught a break on that one.
Luckily for me, my busiest dog (Keeva) is also the slowest chewer. I caught a break on that one.