"Bully Breeds" and Dog Aggression...

Agree here.

I've seen more DA (true DA, not DR) in APBT's, the ADBA style dogs.

Amstaffs are supposed to be more dog friendly but I know of a few that aren't. Sako's whole line is VERY dog friendly for the most part. His mom can be a bit snarky but she is capable of living with other dogs just fine. Sako is extremely dog friendly, his BFF is an intact male Rottie LOL.

My experience with GSD's hasn't been so hot, when it comes to other dogs anyway! My friend has one (same friend who has Sako's BFF) and that dog has gone after all 3 of my dogs on separate occasions. Put a hole through Piper's ear, for no apparent reason (she just walked past him). He's also gone after her own dogs. We don't allow any of them to play together anymore.

We have another GSD in our agility class who is a bit DR as well, and has launched at Sako a few times while he's been in a down/stay.

The breeds that never seemed to work for us long term were APBTs, GSDs, Rotties and Boxers were hit or miss. GSDs were split, many of them didn't work simply because they hated being left there and did nothing but search for their owner all day every day for months. Beyond that, mature GSDs rarely enjoy interacting with strange dogs and especially in-your-face-overly physical sorts of dogs like Labs, Goldens or Boxers. GSDs are control freaks The other GSD issue was predatory drift with smaller dogs. Rotties were often fine as youngsters but became intolerant of other dogs, especially males with males as they matured. They also tended to pick out certain dogs and be "bullies" towards them obsessively following them around, posturing over them, physically pushing them, etc. With Boxers, they tended to be same sex aggressive at times but often ended up having issues because they would play too rough, get corrected by the other dog than turn into "oh so we're fighting...ok!". That actually was similar to some of the APBTs too. Very happily and easily switched from rough play to fighting.

All that said, I took my GSD to daycare with me every day for years and she was good. She had little to no interest in interacting with strange dogs and just followed me around chewing on her tennis ball. She was very SSA with household dogs but didn't care about non-family dogs much. Now I would not have left her there when I wasn't working, she wouldn't have enjoyed it at all. She liked going because she got to hang out with me all day.

Do you guys have luck with Dobermans?

Ours are super hit or miss here but mostly they tend to be breedist snobs. We have a group of dobes that play well together but they rarely tolerate outsiders.

My pittie was the product of God knows what breeding, part of a litter found by the train tracks at what was thought to be about four weeks of age. He was a great and totally reliable dog with the family, always. However, as he reached adulthood he was aggressive to all dogs and all people who were not his family. He was socialized as thoroughly as could be. it seemed to just be part of him. He was never "unpredictable", you could predict his exact behavior in any situation, but ultimately we had to have him put to sleep because he was too dangerous to own. It was horrible because we loved him and he worshipped us. It was a terrible decision to make, and left us sick with grief.

His name was Deuce

The only dog that Jack has ever snarked at in the dog park was a GSD female that was keeping an ever changing perimeter around her owner and charging at any dog that breeched her parameter. The first few times Jack either backed off or ignored her, then finally as she charged up to him he turned to her and showed his teeth. It was only a split second, but she backed off and left him alone after that.

Jack was also attacked by a GSD at the park. It chased him and pinned him against the fence. I was able to drive the dog away long enough to put Jack behind my and ward him off by swinging the leash at him while the owners attempted to catch him. He kept circling around looking for a way to get past me to Jack.

One of Jack's best friends is a female red dobe, and I know that particular dog goes to the dog park without incident.

HA, yes to the bolded part. It's a common theme in the breed.

I haven't worked at a dog daycare, but from my experiences working at other dog places, including FOHA, most of the pit bull types I have known have had some level of DA, from simply being dog selective (some only like opposite sex dogs, for example) to hating every dog in existence. There were two "pit bull types" at FOHA recently named Patience and Silence who are not DA in the slightest, but they are more American Bully than anything, I think.

GSDs tend to be leash reactive. I think some of that is misdirected protective instinct. They also tend to become very neurotic in a kennel situation. There is a pretty female GSD with fluffy hair who boards at work who CONSTANTLY knocks over her water bowl, even the no-spill bowls! You can hear it banging around as she plays with it. She also spreads her food around her kennel instead of eating it, craps in her run, and is generally a real PITA. There's also that annoying rapid-fire barking GSDs tend to do.

The most dog friendly dogs are usually hound types. Beagles, coonhounds, walkers, etc. They all tend to love being in, even thrive, in large groups. Labs, some are OMGILOVEEVERYTHING and some are just bullies to other dogs. There is a yellow lab and a shepherd mix boarding at work together and they try to charge at other dogs when you have them out on leash, and they try to fence fight with all the dogs you walk them by.

I have some friends that have two GSDs that go to daycare during the summer. They say they love it but they do have to stay with the larger dogs. Which IMO is just common sense.

We didn't have many Dobe people wanting to bring their dogs, so I don't have much experience. We did have one who was evaluated but couldn't come. That dog was exceptionally jerky though and his owner was...dumb. He peed on everything while we were evaluating him. Like obsessive marking. On everything included on the owner's tween daughter and her friend who had tagged along, to which the owner's response was "HAHAHAHA! He's marking his territory!!!". The dog was pretty iffy with quite a few of the easy dogs I let in with him and it just all around seemed like that dog coming to daycare was a bad idea. And FWIW, the dog was neutered and was neutered before a year old. I got the idea that he was allowed to do whatever he wanted though and found myself wondering how much their house smelled like pee while I cleaned up after they left.

I don't know that I've ever met a true AmStaff; my experience is more with Pitterstaffs (pits with a staff infection, dogs bred with a mix of both). Overall, they don't seem to be as hot as APBTs, especially APBTs with that old-school breeding. That doesn't mean that a Pitterstaff won't throw down, but maybe they just have a longer wick.

Loki is probably fairly described as Pitterstaff. I can take her anywhere and I don't worry about other dogs. She will sniff noses and seems to default to play if there is no call (in her mind) for aggression. But she has hard lines that you do not cross (re: resources and personal space, usually), and clearly her preference is to deal with other dogs in short spurts, then be done with them. When dogs have crossed her, she will pop like a bubble on them but once you grab her collar and break it up, she isnt trying to "scratch" back into them. In the past, lacking a clear exit to take the offending dog out, I have been able to put her on a down/stay and use both hands to carry/drag the other dog away. She has gotten less dog-tolerant with age, but her reactions are predictable at least. She fights when need be, and will sometimes "trap" another dog by setting them up to cross her boundaries, but you can tell its not something she loves. She just wants the other dog to go away.

Terra is a might trickier. Her mom is Loki's grandma, so there is some similar breeding there. But her dad is gamebred. I did a LOT of control work with her young because I didn't want a super-hot dog. But at a year, her and Loki fell apart. (Loki probably started it, but Terra was ready to reciprocate.) She went after our boy, Priest, as well. Sex is no barrier to her. Although Loki is for sure her special object of affection.

At present, Terra can play with the right male dog, under the right circumstances. But any over-excitement, any barking, and it's like throwing fuel on a fire you didn't even know was there. Because Terra doesn't fling straight-ahead or mouth off unless a dog is really in her face trying to evoke an aggro response. (I've seen her do it twice at ADBA shows, both times in response to a really mouthy dog.) She's subtle, especially if she thinks she may get a chance to make it count. The changes in her are mild: tail raised just a bit, muscles tensed, ears a bit more up than normal, and sometimes she will deliberately avert her gaze from something even though she wants it.

Like I was born yesterday, Terra. *eyeroll*

Off the track, just clicked past a Cesar episode with Howie Mandel and a monster Chi. Don't know how it turned out, but what a little beast...that's not cute, it's obnoxious

Nothing really to add to the thread other than I used to be of the "it's how you raise them" mindset. Now I get irritated when I hear people say that. I truly believed any kind of dog aggression or reactivity was simply a training issue. To be honest, I think a lot of that came from watching shows such as Pit Boss or Dog Whisperer, etc, where you see a bunch of pitties out and about together and ohhh they're sooo great with other dogs.

I will admit that I've since become more aware. And to be honest? Nearly every fight or scuffle that occurs at the dog park happens with the bully-types. I tend to leave when one walks in if I happen to be in the larger section, and I know it may seem like I'm being snobby but I don't really care. I've also seen a lot of GSD's with issues in regards to reactivity and snarkiness I guess you'd call it. It's definitely turned me off to the breed, even though I still love them, I am not sure I'd be willing to deal with it if it came up. My uncle's GSD girl was extremely dog reactive from the moment he brought her home, and now he has worked with her to the point where she's okay in public, etc, and she lives fine with my other uncles Lab (but he's super laid back) but she's definitely somewhat selective. She's more fearful though than anything, it's not really her being "dominant". The first time she came to the dog park, two JRT's charged her and practically ambushed her and she was backing up as far as could, teeth baring, hair standing up (rightfully so). He was bringing her up to the dog park for a while though and she ended up doing really well... she tends to ignore other dogs there though and prefers to play ball with her 'dad' and always keep her eye on him, which is a trait I DO love about Shepherds from what I've met. Their loyalty is incredible. I'm cautious around her and Jackson... her play style is very rough and nippy, but luckily, she seems to know now that Jackson won't tolerate it and they more so ignore each other.

But anyways... yes I play it much more safe with bully breeds now. Jackson doesn't tend to like their play style anyways. I look at like this ... I know that if I placed Jackson in a room full of mice and rats and squirrels, there'd be nothing I could do to stop those instincts from chasing, grabbing and killing it. I know there wouldn't be. I could be holding the juiciest piece of steak in the world and I have a feeling he'd choose the squirrel (then coming running back to me expecting the food, LOL). So why should I expect every Pit to enjoy the company of other dogs?

I think Adrienne was the one who stated it was more of a distinction between lineage than across the three breeds themselves. I have to agree.

I have much more experience with APBTs, specifically with the gamebred dogs. Yes, I like gamebred APBTs. Why? Because they ARE the APBT. The APBT was founded here in America, and it's those historical dogs that created the dogs I came to know and love so passionately. IMO, the big shift in the "why" the dogs were bred is what has brought about the drastic increase in human aggressive and unstable dogs we have out there today. But enough of that (that's a whole new thread. lol).

The AST breed began with APBTs, but the breeding went away from the pit. Breeding has been selective upon conformation and temperament, and those who do work their dogs do so more in obedience and similar arenas. The AST is a completely different breed today than the APBT. Now, even though it's focus has been away from dogfighting, you can't breed out a genetic trait form hundreds of years ago in just 75 yearsv(or however many...I can't remember the exact year off the top of my head). With my experience with ASTs, which comes from just a few friends with them and clients' dogs, I've found that the dogs are definitely less dog aggressive, if not downright cold. I think as a breed, it could be said that their is lesser DA within it than the APBT. However, this is still a bulldog and terrier breed, and bulldogs and terriers are also known for being DA, so you're talking about many many years back of having this trait.

Within the APBT, I would say you have to start looking at the lineage. The APBT is becoming one of the most diverse breeds ever (in fact, I say it's about 3+ breeds all under a single breed name). People have begun breeding willy nilly, and standards have been tossed out the window. Some people have been breeding for 30+ years for nothing but square, blocky bodies; some fools have taken unstable dogs and made it a habit of breeding them, but all they breed for is it's aggression (I'm not talking about DA); some people breed for areas such as weightpull agility, and that's resulted in a different type; some people breeding hunting dogs (hog dogs), and IMO those are the closest to the pit-type dogs; and some people still breed dogs for what they were orginally bred to do.

It's very easy for me to say that the pit dogs will have a higher level of DA overall, but again, you cannot breed out a trait hundreds of years old in a comparitively short amount of time.

As for the SBTs, again, I'd say it's the lineage. I know a few European people who have working SBTs, and those dogs look NOTHING like the short, blocky, fat thing you see being paraded around Westminster and whatnot. So I would again say that the working lines have an overall higher increase in DA than the non-working dogs.

To me, DA is not the intended trait that has been bred for, but rather a side affect of their breeding. That side affect is indeed a trait on it's own, but it's not for what or why the dogs were bred.

My Pit mix Gus had a couple of "enemies" over the years, but only one was truly hated by him, and it was mutual. He was a big yellow Lab named Logan. When Gus was about 6 months old, Logan attacked him when we walked past his house. Gus wasn't hurt much, but it started a lifelong feud. They never had a "showdown", but if I hadn't seen Logan at the boarding kennel in the pen, it could have been very bad, as Logan had a hip replacement and some kind of shoulder issue and Gus was in amazing condition. Gus never started or wanted to start a fight, except with Logan. King is another thing entirely. He tolerates no aggression at all. If a dog tries to push him around, he will react in a negative way. Doesn't matter how big the dog is, or how young, he will try, and almost always succeed in pinning him. He has a few dogs in day care a decade younger, and twice his size, that grovel when he just glances at them..

up cho bác, chúc bác bán d?t hÃ*ng.

I concur.

I disagree, just to be a doodoohead.

As someone who works at a daycare, I can honestly say that the two breeds I hate to see coming in the most are pits and GSDs. I can think of one pit off the top of my head who is totally trustworthy ( and a horrendous example of the breed. She's straight from gamebred lines, and is the biggest, wimpiest, shrinking violet who ever lived). All of the other require my very watchful eye at all times.

I don't have as many aggression issues with the GSD's, but every single one is compulsive, needy and will make iteself ill from being seperated from it's people. I can't think of a single one who isn't a neurotic stress case.

Boxers are another trouble breed. I hadn't realized DA/DR was so common in them until I started working there.

I only have a handful of Rottie's and Dobes, but they seem to do alright.

It's so funny to hear about Boxers being DR/DA. Not that I can't see the potential, but we don't have a single one that's even moderately edgy, and we have 6 that are regulars. One is even intact and he's not SSA or reactive. Must just be our luck in this area.

You do realize though, it's not "all in how you raise them"?