Agility people, suggestions?

Katem

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#21
...Plus, I want to do actual agility plus trialing with my next dog so this would just be for fun plus to get my foot in the door as far as understanding equipment and all that. So I want it to be less "serious" without being a complete joke...
Doing lots of foundation type classes in general can help a lot for future dogs. Going through the class with a dog that you have no intentions of trialing can help you work on your own mechanics without fear of 'messing up' a performance prospect.

That said, no one knows which class will be the best fit for you and Art than yourself. Will the trainer allow you to sit in on a class to see if you think it would be what you're looking for?
 

BostonBanker

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#22
If it isn't what you are looking for - well, then it isn't what you are looking for. I think you will find that most agility places are going to fall into one of two categories. Either they will be focused on pet people who want to see their dog jump over jumps, and will thus have less trained staff (at least from an agility standpoint), or you will find places that have good, experienced agility instructors, and you can expect a huge amount of foundations work. I'm curious what the "four classes getting them used to equipment" are. To me, that sounds like agility. I would expect from the bit you told us that their "agility" class that you start four classes in is actual sequencing and such. And, to be blunt, dogs aren't going to do well in that without knowing the equipment. I may be misunderstanding the class progression, but that is my guess.

Schools that get you on the equipment fast are out there; the place I taught at out of college (never seen agility run in my life, but I was teaching beginners :rolleyes:) had dogs doing little "courses" at the end of the first 6 week course. It was a wreck. Dogs were worried, they never progressed beyond that, but the people loved it.

I've referred to Meg as my "practice dog". I never intended to compete her (ha!), but I used her to learn all the correct techniques for training. Obviously she turned into a great competition dog in her own right, but the things I learned from training her have been invaluable as I've started Gusto.
 

Aleron

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#23
The one place that I like the looks of (haven't visited yet) that seems to have some good reviews from people I know and is fairly close, you have to take 4 classes prior to actually doing agility. 3 classes getting use to the different equiptment, and one balancing/stretching/strength training class.

That's all great, I think it would be a lot of fun, they are each 8 weeks long, so takes plenty of time to get use to the stuff and environment, which is great for Art. The bad part is it's $180 PER CLASS! >_< Which, wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't 4 classes before even getting to do the agility. Art is a fast learner, settles in really fast so I don't know if the slow pace would work well, but even if it did, that's about $720 before the first agility class. Then another $180 for the first agility class. Not only that, it's 32 weeks, which is around 8 months! That's not even counting the time between classes.
This actually sounds like a potentially excellent place to train to me. The price is high for my area but I know these things vary a great deal depending on where you live. I honestly wish more places had agility classes like this as opposed the "Get'r Done" intro classes most places off. 8 months of foundation work is not really too much at all, especially not for a new handler/dog team. Savvy has been in an ongoing foundation class for 10 months now. In this class we work on flat handling, stays, recalls, tunnels, handling with tunnels, chute, table, teeter foundation work, jump bumps, low aframe/dogwalk, targetting, etc.

The issue is that most people think agility is running courses with their dog and when starting off they want to get to that point ASAP. The problem with getting to that point ASAP is that you skip over a lot of what is really important - teaching your dog handler focus and obstacle focus and how to switch between the two, teaching independent performance of the obstacles, teaching confidence on equipment first and foremost before anything else, teaching your dog to read your cues, teaching a solid target and than a solid contact behavior, building value for the dog in performing the equipment, building speed....I could go on and on and on. When you jump right into "doing agility" in you get the dogs to just do equipment quickly and start trying to run them, you will almost always have issues down the road with independent performance, confidence on the equipment, lack of focus on handler or equipment, stress, lack of speed or with a very motivated dog speed without handler focus, etc, etc.
 

adojrts

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#24
Hey Blue,

Consider it this way, in the 'fun agility' places, they often have just purchased some agility equipment and started to run classes. For the simple reason that it is a cashcow for them, they don't have to invest a lot or have any knowledge. But there is a huge fall out to it, people and their dogs often get very stressed, frustrated and quit, believing that they nor their dog likes agility or is any good at it. Meanwhile at a good place, they know not to over face the dog or handler and they teach you in such a fashion that you are successful. Therefore min the stress and frustration, more than likely you wont quit, you and your dog will be having a blast.

Bottomline is there is a high risk that you will wasted your money and your time, by settling for a lesser training facility, because they can't train you and your dog properly.

Here are 2 examples that I have dealt with recently at my facility.

1:

Owner signs up for agility at a place that uses corrections and force. Trainer has NO experience in agility (doubful that they have had lessons and they certainly don't compete or have students that compete). Dog was not trained with any of the foundation skills to prep them to SAFELY perform a Dog Walk or Teeter. Dog apparently was worried (it should be) about getting on a full sized Dog Walk, so the 'trainer' grabs the dog from the owner, dragging and forcing the dog. The owner finally stopped the trainer and quit the classes. But the damage was done, dog was terrified and certainly now had trust issues in their owner as well. They started with me, it took 5 MONTHS to retrain that dog to happily and safely do the contact equipment. So 3 classes at the 'fun agility' place, quit, no refund v.s 5 months of retraining and undoing damage, you do the math. Good thing is in that 5 months plus a few more months here they learned a bunch of skills and can do agility very nicely, fast and able to run long sequences without faulting. Dog now loves agility and so does the owner :)

2:

Woman comes from a fun agility facility, took their beginner and then advanced agility courses where they were doing 'runs' the first night of the first class. Now she thinks she wants to 'get serious' about agility and compete. Not only had they not been taught properly, they had developed a lot of bad habits. She was not a happy camper when I told her we had to retrain her and her dog from the foundations up.


Good training with an instructor that is educated and competes (and wins plus has students that win/title) is never a waste of money. In the long run, they'll get you there faster and save you money.
 

Babyblue5290

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#25
Doing lots of foundation type classes in general can help a lot for future dogs. Going through the class with a dog that you have no intentions of trialing can help you work on your own mechanics without fear of 'messing up' a performance prospect.

That said, no one knows which class will be the best fit for you and Art than yourself. Will the trainer allow you to sit in on a class to see if you think it would be what you're looking for?
But when I got the agility prospect, I would be doing the foundation classes then with that dog.

Probably, the place I like I'm not calling because I know I'll fall in love with the place and I simply wouldn't be able to afford it. Then every other place I look at after that I'm sure just wouldn't look nearly as good.

If it isn't what you are looking for - well, then it isn't what you are looking for. I think you will find that most agility places are going to fall into one of two categories. Either they will be focused on pet people who want to see their dog jump over jumps, and will thus have less trained staff (at least from an agility standpoint), or you will find places that have good, experienced agility instructors, and you can expect a huge amount of foundations work. I'm curious what the "four classes getting them used to equipment" are. To me, that sounds like agility. I would expect from the bit you told us that their "agility" class that you start four classes in is actual sequencing and such. And, to be blunt, dogs aren't going to do well in that without knowing the equipment. I may be misunderstanding the class progression, but that is my guess.

Schools that get you on the equipment fast are out there; the place I taught at out of college (never seen agility run in my life, but I was teaching beginners :rolleyes:) had dogs doing little "courses" at the end of the first 6 week course. It was a wreck. Dogs were worried, they never progressed beyond that, but the people loved it.

I've referred to Meg as my "practice dog". I never intended to compete her (ha!), but I used her to learn all the correct techniques for training. Obviously she turned into a great competition dog in her own right, but the things I learned from training her have been invaluable as I've started Gusto.
The other places (lot less expensive), are doing two foundations, so it's not like there are no foundations. The expensive place is you practice balance in the first class (fun class I), practice a bit of the agility equipment (foundations I), practice stretching and warming up, for the third class (fun class II), and then the rest of the agility equipment (foundations II). which all sounds great, though 8 months seems a bit overkill for me, but there is just no way I'm going to be able to pay (or get David on board with paying) nearly $800 for that right now. That's 100 per month where every other place is $50 per month or LESS. That's seems to be a drastic price up for this area to me for a dog that will never compete and a handler that will take the better classes with a different dog. Why pay $800 now and then $800 just to do it again later when only one actually matters? This one is just for fun type thing.

Hey Blue,

Consider it this way, in the 'fun agility' places, they often have just purchased some agility equipment and started to run classes. For the simple reason that it is a cashcow for them, they don't have to invest a lot or have any knowledge. But there is a huge fall out to it, people and their dogs often get very stressed, frustrated and quit, believing that they nor their dog likes agility or is any good at it. Meanwhile at a good place, they know not to over face the dog or handler and they teach you in such a fashion that you are successful. Therefore min the stress and frustration, more than likely you wont quit, you and your dog will be having a blast.

Bottomline is there is a high risk that you will wasted your money and your time, by settling for a lesser training facility, because they can't train you and your dog properly.

Here are 2 examples that I have dealt with recently at my facility.

1:

Owner signs up for agility at a place that uses corrections and force. Trainer has NO experience in agility (doubful that they have had lessons and they certainly don't compete or have students that compete). Dog was not trained with any of the foundation skills to prep them to SAFELY perform a Dog Walk or Teeter. Dog apparently was worried (it should be) about getting on a full sized Dog Walk, so the 'trainer' grabs the dog from the owner, dragging and forcing the dog. The owner finally stopped the trainer and quit the classes. But the damage was done, dog was terrified and certainly now had trust issues in their owner as well. They started with me, it took 5 MONTHS to retrain that dog to happily and safely do the contact equipment. So 3 classes at the 'fun agility' place, quit, no refund v.s 5 months of retraining and undoing damage, you do the math. Good thing is in that 5 months plus a few more months here they learned a bunch of skills and can do agility very nicely, fast and able to run long sequences without faulting. Dog now loves agility and so does the owner :)
I already said I refuse the place that does force training 100%. The place that is mostly positive with some force, it's mainly one trainer that seems to be the traditional style. And the fun classes (well, mostly except the last few places) I looked at DO have foundations,t ehy don't just toss the dogs on the equiptment and they DO compete in agility with titles.

2:

Woman comes from a fun agility facility, took their beginner and then advanced agility courses where they were doing 'runs' the first night of the first class. Now she thinks she wants to 'get serious' about agility and compete. Not only had they not been taught properly, they had developed a lot of bad habits. She was not a happy camper when I told her we had to retrain her and her dog from the foundations up.


Good training with an instructor that is educated and competes (and wins plus has students that win/title) is never a waste of money. In the long run, they'll get you there faster and save you money.
Again, no runs the first night. It has foundations the first two classes. Also, Art will not trial. I will not trial with Art. That's that pretty much as far as I'm concerned.
 

Babyblue5290

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#26
I'm feeling a bit flustered with this. I didn't come to this expecting to never do any foundations, I DID. I did NOT come to this expecting to spend a measly $60 on a class, I know my area is around $120 for classes such as these, but is it really so much to ask for an affordable class to just get us started that uses positive methods without having to pay with my first born??

***edited*** that was a bit of the frustration taking over. All right, how bout agility just isn't going to happen. Thanks for the comments. What I'm getting from everyone is that if I just can't afford to do it with the top place, I shouldn't do it at all. Which makes me very sad but oh well.

I guess we will have to go with our CGC class and stop there. :(
 
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Beanie

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#27
Agility isn't just about the dog though. I can tell you things have been quite different working with Payton having already worked with Auggie. When I got my 2x2s, I wanted to go through the process with Auggie first - not because he needed to learn how to weave or even needed to improve his weave poles (weave poles are pretty much his best obstacle actually), but because I wanted a chance to learn the process with a dog who was already on the ball rather than going through trial and error of learning the process AND with a dog I was still connecting with and learning how he thought.

You asked "agility people" for their take but you don't seem to really be that interested in honestly taking our advice on it...
 

Babyblue5290

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Agility isn't just about the dog though. I can tell you things have been quite different working with Payton having already worked with Auggie. When I got my 2x2s, I wanted to go through the process with Auggie first - not because he needed to learn how to weave or even needed to improve his weave poles (weave poles are pretty much his best obstacle actually), but because I wanted a chance to learn the process with a dog who was already on the ball rather than going through trial and error of learning the process AND with a dog I was still connecting with and learning how he thought.

You asked "agility people" for their take but you don't seem to really be that interested in honestly taking our advice on it...
I appreciate all the responses, my issues are with the incorrect statements. You assume $180 is reasonable for my area when I clearly said it was not. You guys said the "fun classes" didn't teach any foundations so I would regret it, but I already had stated that they DO teach foundations.

Excuse me if I feel a bit flustered, I'm not in any way saying your guys advice isn't valid, but it's seems mostly based off those two incorrect statements, which just aren't true.

There's been a lot through this thread that I read and that has helped make my decision, and I appreciate all the responses, I just don't agree with the advice. :)
 

Babyblue5290

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#29
I honestly would have trouble affording it if I didn't work at a facility that I traded hours for classes/ring time. Can you ask about financing or trading?

We charge 100 for a class which is 6 weeks of 1 hour each.
I missed this the first read through, what would financing and trading involve?
 

CaliTerp07

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#30
Again, no runs the first night. It has foundations the first two classes. Also, Art will not trial. I will not trial with Art. That's that pretty much as far as I'm concerned.
A few things stand out to me...

#1 - 2 nights of foundations before you do what? Run sequences? If that's all the prep work they're going to give you, why not just buy some pvc and do jumps in your yard for free? Getting the dog to go over equipment isn't that difficult.

#2 - We poll our agility students at each level with "Do you have plans to compete?" At the first class, on average 1 out of ever 20 students says yes. The other 19 are adamant that it's just for fun, they're just exploring, etc. Yet 75% of students come back for level 2. And the majority of them come back for level 3. And by the time they get to level 4, about 80% of students say they now are planning to try going to a trial one day.

You may never want to leave your backyard, and that's okay--but if you one day change your mind, it'd be nice not to have to fix anything.

#3 - You're talking about doing it the "proper" (can't think of the right word) way with the next dog. Honestly, agility is probably 2/3 handler, 1/3 dog. If you learn how to do things properly with Art, you'll have a much easier go of it with your next dog. You won't have any bad habits to retrain in yourself, you'll know the exercises to do with the dog the moment you bring it home to get it acclimated, etc.

I took classes at a great place for around a year, before one session I couldn't get in because I waited too long and everything was full. I signed up with another place in town, where all the instructors are experienced, titled competitors. It was still a disaster. I went to one class before I quit, lost my $180, and never went back. It was the little things like, "Wow, your dog is really fast, you should slow her down and perfect the technique, then build back up speed." I was grateful that I knew that was ridiculous advice, or I might have listened and killed some of Lucy's drive and ruined the next dog that I get. I paid for privates for the next 2 months until classes were available at the good place again. Expensive mistake.

As for the 8 month time line...we've been training for THREE YEARS. Granted, I have a dog rife with issues (she's reactive, she's ADD, she upstresses like mad, etc), but 8 months is nothing in the training world. In my program, you don't see short sequences (<10 obstacles) until level 5--but that's not to say you never get on equipment! We have introduced the dogs to every obstacle by the end of the first level (7 weeks), just at a very, very slow and gentle level (flattened aframe, wobble boards instead of full teeter, low jumps, chute with the fabric slightly lifted, straight (not curved) tunnels, etc). No one has EVER said "wow, those classes were boring and a waste of time".

Long winded...but the bottom line is that if YOU ever intend to compete with any dog, I wouldn't waste the money on a less than awesome class, or you're going to have to un-teach yourself later. People who "transfer" to my trainer from other programs generally go down 2-3 levels or have to take numerous privates ($$$$$) to fill in the holes in their handling.
 

CaliTerp07

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#31
Oh, and I realize that the cost is expensive :( When I think about the fact that I've spent around $10k on agility lessons, I want to cry.

BUT...it's literally the only thing I splurge on. I drive a 13 year old car, I take my lunch to work each day, I don't have kids doing activities, our "date nights" are usually renting a movie, I don't buy name brand clothes, etc. I'm not rich...i just throw away money on a dog instead of anything else :D It boils down to around $25/week, the same price as going to a movie with my husband, or eating out lunch twice.
 

Babyblue5290

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#32
A few things stand out to me...

#1 - 2 nights of foundations before you do what? Run sequences? If that's all the prep work they're going to give you, why not just buy some pvc and do jumps in your yard for free? Getting the dog to go over equipment isn't that difficult.

#2 - We poll our agility students at each level with "Do you have plans to compete?" At the first class, on average 1 out of ever 20 students says yes. The other 19 are adamant that it's just for fun, they're just exploring, etc. Yet 75% of students come back for level 2. And the majority of them come back for level 3. And by the time they get to level 4, about 80% of students say they now are planning to try going to a trial one day.

You may never want to leave your backyard, and that's okay--but if you one day change your mind, it'd be nice not to have to fix anything.

#3 - You're talking about doing it the "proper" (can't think of the right word) way with the next dog. Honestly, agility is probably 2/3 handler, 1/3 dog. If you learn how to do things properly with Art, you'll have a much easier go of it with your next dog. You won't have any bad habits to retrain in yourself, you'll know the exercises to do with the dog the moment you bring it home to get it acclimated, etc.

I took classes at a great place for around a year, before one session I couldn't get in because I waited too long and everything was full. I signed up with another place in town, where all the instructors are experienced, titled competitors. It was still a disaster. I went to one class before I quit, lost my $180, and never went back. It was the little things like, "Wow, your dog is really fast, you should slow her down and perfect the technique, then build back up speed." I was grateful that I knew that was ridiculous advice, or I might have listened and killed some of Lucy's drive and ruined the next dog that I get. I paid for privates for the next 2 months until classes were available at the good place again. Expensive mistake.

As for the 8 month time line...we've been training for THREE YEARS. Granted, I have a dog rife with issues (she's reactive, she's ADD, she upstresses like mad, etc), but 8 months is nothing in the training world. In my program, you don't see short sequences (<10 obstacles) until level 5--but that's not to say you never get on equipment! We have introduced the dogs to every obstacle by the end of the first level (7 weeks), just at a very, very slow and gentle level (flattened aframe, wobble boards instead of full teeter, low jumps, chute with the fabric slightly lifted, straight (not curved) tunnels, etc). No one has EVER said "wow, those classes were boring and a waste of time".

Long winded...but the bottom line is that if YOU ever intend to compete with any dog, I wouldn't waste the money on a less than awesome class, or you're going to have to un-teach yourself later. People who "transfer" to my trainer from other programs generally go down 2-3 levels or have to take numerous privates ($$$$$) to fill in the holes in their handling.
#1. I said TWO CLASSES. Which are each 8 weeks long, NOT two nights.

#2 I promise if I have to fix everything after going through with Art later deciding to compete I will not put up a big stink and I will say that I was more than forewarned about it. :) But I can not see the possibility of Artimis competeing anywhere in the near future. It's just not for him I promise you. :)

#3, you are killing me here!! >_< *sigh* I swear, you guys are going to force me into the poor house aren't you? My main issue right now is that if I go to the expensive place that I love the look of to watch a class and meet the instructors I will likely never leave. All right, All right. I'll check them out if someone can give me a good excuse to tell David how the price won't kill us??


OH one more question while everyones all fired up, Can you start classes and take a break in between or is it pretty much you have to go from one class to the other without a break or your dog will die (metaphorically ;) )
 

Babyblue5290

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Oh, and I realize that the cost is expensive :( When I think about the fact that I've spent around $10k on agility lessons, I want to cry.

BUT...it's literally the only thing I splurge on. I drive a 13 year old car, I take my lunch to work each day, I don't have kids doing activities, our "date nights" are usually renting a movie, I don't buy name brand clothes, etc. I'm not rich...i just throw away money on a dog instead of anything else :D It boils down to around $25/week, the same price as going to a movie with my husband, or eating out lunch twice.
See I think this is my issues. I'm very stingy with money. I don't have outside activities besides work and school and neither does David. I just don't like spending money period. So hearing $180 per course for four "pre-courses" and who knows how many after-courses, makes me want to lay in my bed and weep. :( lol

I guess I should be clear. There is absolutely no classes that we can go through just to see if the end game is worth all the trouble for us?
 

CaliTerp07

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#34
#1. I said TWO CLASSES. Which are each 8 weeks long, NOT two nights.

...

OH one more question while everyones all fired up, Can you start classes and take a break in between or is it pretty much you have to go from one class to the other without a break or your dog will die (metaphorically ;) )
Sorry, terminology mix up. A "class" is 1 night of a "session" or "level" or "course" to me. If it's 2 sessions of foundations, that's a different story. I'd expect to spend at least 4 sessions before you're running full length courses (and that's assuming that you move pretty rapidly--most people repeat sessions several times at some point before being able to move up). I would expect at least 2 before you're doing full height equipment. If it's 4 full sessions before you even see any equipment, that's overkill except for serious competitors, imo.

and YES, you can absolutely take breaks between classes. Life happens, and the dogs retain it pretty darn well. Little behaviors will fall apart if they aren't reinforced pretty consistently (Lucy had a verbal command for the tunnel, but then I didn't use it for months and now I have to work to retrain it), but the general comfort on equipment and reading of your body language doesn't evaporate if you take a few months off!
 

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#37
See I think this is my issues. I'm very stingy with money. I don't have outside activities besides work and school and neither does David. I just don't like spending money period. So hearing $180 per course for four "pre-courses" and who knows how many after-courses, makes me want to lay in my bed and weep. :( lol

I guess I should be clear. There is absolutely no classes that we can go through just to see if the end game is worth all the trouble for us?
Honestly, the suggestion that maybe you should just build yourself some equipment and train in your yard isn't necessarily a bad one. If you truly have no interest in competing and don't want to spend money on classes, just want to play around with your dog it seems like that could be a good option. There are a lot of great DVDs out now that you could rent from Bow Wow Flicks for what $12/month? There DVDs that could teach you how to train foundations, obstacles and handling.

If you want to go to class that gets your dog on the equipment and "doing agility" faster you won't be the first or the last to go that direction. Plenty of people in my area go to such classes and seem perfectly happy with them. IME There are plenty of people just interested in "doing agility" that have no interest in training for the finer points of agility. If you ask a group of people who are more experienced and more interested in all the finer points of agility (which is in the end, what is really important) how you should go about training your dog for agility, you can expect answers such as you've gotten here :)

It's hard to say if your cheaper class option with 2 foundation courses prior to the intro course would be good or not. It might be a great option or it might not be. The expensive place might not be great either, they sound pretty serious about agility. I do find most places that offer foundation courses for agility are at least more progressive minded than ones who don't.
 

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#38
OH one more question while everyones all fired up, Can you start classes and take a break in between or is it pretty much you have to go from one class to the other without a break or your dog will die (metaphorically )
Absolutely fine! You will likely leave each class with some skills that you could work on at home - things like shadow handling, contact performance, etc. Taking some time off from classes wouldn't hurt in any case, and if you keep up with that stuff, you'll be a step or ten ahead.

I understand your frustration with the situation and what we are saying. I think, like so many activities, it sounds absurd to someone new or outside it (Want to see my horse bills? I assure you, you don't!). But realize that we are coming at this as people who have likely either seen others, or ourselves go down the route you are discussing. I certainly didn't mean to come across as attacking you or assuming that you thought you could just run a course the first night, and apologize if it came off that way.

As for cost - the per class fee is $22.50 - exactly what I pay per class. We just do 6 week session instead of 8. It's on the higher end for our area, but everyone is right around $20 a class.
 

Babyblue5290

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#39
What does "worth it" look like to you?
Worth it means fun for me mainly (something I enjoy doing even if the work is a lot or hard) and something that Art or future dog enjoys as well. If the dogs are stressed, I don't care how much I like it it's not going to happen. And worth it also means how much do I like it vs the cost (money, time, work, etc).

Your in WA right?

I pay $120 for 6 weeks.
Yeah I am, you like your place? Where do you go?
 

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Apr 4, 2011
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#40
Worth it means fun for me mainly (something I enjoy doing even if the work is a lot or hard) and something that Art or future dog enjoys as well. If the dogs are stressed, I don't care how much I like it it's not going to happen. And worth it also means how much do I like it vs the cost (money, time, work, etc).



Yeah I am, you like your place? Where do you go?
I love my place! It's pawsability in fife.
 

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