What do you think of these "Top Alpha" dog techniques??

I've had dogs, lots of dogs for over 50 years now. And I've never thought a thing about who goes out the door first. And I've never had a dog boss me around. lol. Dogs are evolved... designed to live with humans and they have no thought in their head about this stuff some humans have made up. That's all it is, a bunch of imaginary things to do for some imaginary hierarchy thing they imagine dogs are so into. There is no evidence whatsoever that dogs live like that or think we are other dogs.

I feed my dogs at 8:00 am and 4:30 pm. I don't eat at those times usually. I have never paid any attention to that. They watch me eat lots of times. They may have already eaten or not. They still wish they could have some. And sometimes they get some hand-outs as long as they're not pestering me.

My little dogs wouldn't feel comfortable with me stepping over them. They're naturally nervous about getting stepped on. I most definitely go around them or they move themselves. With my larger dogs I've had, I wouldn't dream of asking them to move when they're all comfortably lying down. I see no point in stepping over them. That might tend to make them nervous, so I would go around them if possible. I've had GSDs, Doberman, other larger breeds and never have I had behavior problems or dogs that were trying to rule the roost.

Again, nothing to do with alpha schmalfa. For me, with larger dogs, I prefer them to not go too far out ahead, but a little bit if the walk is for them so they sniff and check things out. Sometimes, it can cause them to pull because they don't think they need to pay any attention. But it's all about training, not that the dog thinks he's the boss. With my Chihuahuas, I prefer them to be a little ahead so I can see them and not yank them if they stop to check something out if they're behind me. Or they can walk along side me too. It really makes no difference to their sense of having leadership. Like someone mentioned, sled dogs, search and rescue dogs, tracking and other kinds of dogs are suppose to be ahead. Do you think those dogs are all taking over their households? If someone wants their dog to not go ahead, it's all about reinforcing behavior you want and that's what makes them do something a certain way. Nothing more.

I always greet my dogs, but calmly and mildly. I don't want them getting overly excited. But it's also very unnatural for me to completely ignore them. Who meets others with no acknowledgement? Again, dogs and humans are designed to live together and understand lots of social signals from each other. I know dogs aren't misinterpreting my greeting as the notion that they're "top dog." That's just out there.

I work on getting eye contact from my dogs and increasing duration for as long as I want it. I'm usually the one to reward with a tasty treat and then do something else. If my dog averts his glance first, it means I need to work on duration more. lol. Yeah, I guess he's top dog when he learns his lessons well. Top dog in my book anyhow. LOL.

That is again personal preference. I don't mind a friend calling me and asking me to go play. And seeing as how my dogs are my pals, I don't mind when Jose` brings me his ball and dumps it at my feet and does his growly-talkie thing. I usually am game to play a game. If I'm busy, I don't and he goes off and does something else. Sometimes he gets tired and quits after several throws and sometimes I need to do something else so I end up stopping the game. There's no conscious thought in my head about it. And again, my dogs are well behaved and lovely little joys to live with.

My dogs haven't been trained too well to wait to greet people. But if I cared, I could teach them to stay back and wait. It's just not something that bothers me too much. But it has nothing to do with who's the pack leader and everything to do with learning behavior. Dogs aren't pack animals anyhow. So, it's irrelevant.

I think if and when they "work" as in creating nice manners that you want to instill in your dog, they work on account of operant and classical conditioning....learning behavior and not on account of these invented, silly reasons that people are still relentlessly clinging to for some reason. In other words, if you walk with your dog along side you and not in front of you and it's consistent that they never walk ahead of you.... and they get the reward of getting to go for the much loved walk, then they learn to stay along side you. It's not because they are aware of any rank or status in your family.

With some of those, like eating first...I have no idea what that's suppose to teach.

I don't have the feeling that my dogs are "under" me. I feel like we're partners. They are taught manners, behaviors and things that I like by gentle methods which are scientifically proven and not by means of ambiguous, abstract and weak foundations, such as pack theory. Some of those alpha/pack theory people teach by intimidation and other harsh methods, such as Cesar Milan. I'd stay clear of those kinds of methods which are springing from the idea that dogs need to be dominated.

This gal has some great videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cdcyrOMehg

Even old Cesar changed his mind about this stuff awhile back. IMHO it's moronic, people who feel they have to play such games with an animal companion shouldn't have pets period, they should spend that money on a good therapist to work out them dominance issues.

With any dog there needs to be a firm kind understanding from day one. I give you food and comfort and you be my good buddy...simple as that. If I say come here or you don't chase cats or we're walking to this side of the road so you don't become road pizza...you will do it. If you have a the right mindset and the right dog and additional training if needed it works...bullying ANYONE into cooperating creates resentment not obedience.

I make my dogs wait at doorways to the outside, and I make them walk next to me on steps/stairs. But that is for safety reasons, not because I think they're going to overthrow me if I don't lol.

My dogs eat whenever (before or after me, it doesn't matter), they just have to sit or down and wait till I put the food bowl down and release them. Just for good manners.

And I don't play fetch on their terms because I think it's annoying having a ball dropped on my lap over and over, so I don't want to encourage that.

I don't allow jumping because it's annoying and most people don't like having a dog jump on them.

Dominance theory is outdated, as everyone else said. I do everything I do with my dogs for safety and manners' sake. And I don't do most of the stuff on that list.

Both these. Bodhi has been taught to wait because it's simply not safe to go barging out doors - imagine if she ran out into a car??

Nothing to do with dominance though. Load of tripe

I knew a Lab once who would go all around his big property and collect a large mouthful of sticks. How he managed to get them all facing the same way and so many, enough to build a fire in a fireplace, I don't know. But he would do this and then drop them all at your feet. LOL. He would persist in asking you to throw each and every one of them and not relent until you did. He was a pest. Jose`, on the other hand, will bring me his ball or his squirrel sometimes to ask if I want to play. But if I don't, he just walks away and does something else. I wouldn't like it though, if he were a pest about it. In that case, I'd probably not be as easy going. So, it depends too, on the dog I think...their own individual personality. Some dogs are persistent once they get an idea in their heads and some give up quite easily. But either way, I don't think playing with them when they want to play creates in them the complex thought process of who's on what rung of some imaginary social ladder.

My responses in bold.

I do put some credit in struggle of control in any relationship but over all, these theories are very outdated. Dogs aren't stupid, they know we're humans, maybe one day we'll be as smart are they are.

I don't get the dominance theory. Dogs were bred to help humans. Having a dog who constantly wanted to be "top dog" would be pretty bothersome, don't you think? I'd assume dogs that constantly tested their owners and refused to preform because they wanted to be alpha wouldn't be bred.


We do generally greet newcomers first, but that's because my mom has kind of trained Schaffer to stop barking and relax once she shakes the hand of a stranger entering the house.
There are a few things on the list I kind of do, but, as others have said, none of it is about dominance.

I don't prescribe to dominance theory myself.

I have rules, yes. But they are about what behaviour I want and what suits me. I don't have a lot of rules to be honest.

- When I let them out the front door, they have to sit and wait for a release. The front door leads on to my unfenced front yard, so I don't want them dashing out onto the road.
- Other doors I don't care so much about, but will occasionally mix it up just for fun.
- Friendly calm greetings for guests. Just to stop them getting mugged (Grace) or harassed (Abby). They are welcome to greet the family in any way they want lol. And yes, they do know the difference.
- I usually do some training before meals, so they wait for a release to get their food. It's just a way to get a quick training session done. I don't eat before them or anything.
- Grace has always been a PITA around dinner time. She just really goes on about how hungry she is and whines (I really dislike whining). I never addressed this issue with her because I'm lazy and it's my fault it happened, but Abby has lovely manners around dinner time as a result.
- Waiting for a release to get out of the car/crate - safety issue.
- They are allowed on couches and beds whenever they please, but they must get off if I say so. And they do. I've never run into any issues.

I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but as you can see most of them have practical applications that have nothing to do with them taking over the household.

Haha. Thank you! That is exactly what I meant... but I guess some people would rather take things painfully literally and act like a smartass.

I completely agree with you. Dogs are different, and need different kinds of boundaries. My personal pet peeve is Labs/Goldens/Border Collies and other such breeds whose only passion is FETCH. They run around with a ball in their mouth all day, and nag you constantly to throw it. Not only is it annoying, it's not mentally healthy for a dog to develop such an obsession. Because Gonzo loves fetching like any BC, I make a point to not play with him if he's demanding that I do so. I will initiate play with him and give him plenty of fetching time, but I also incorporate obedience work and running/playing with other dogs in between fetching. I don't want it to become a mindless game. Fozzie doesn't fetch and only plays with toys that make funny noises, so in the rare occasion that he brings me a toy I will play with him.

My roommate would have her family BC stay at our house half of the week. She annoyed me so much, but I wasn't allowed to train her according to my roomie, and her Mom kept a shock collar on her 24/7 so she was way too fearful to work with half the time anyway. She would go through Fozzie's toy box and squeak his squeaky toys all day long, for hours, if she didn't destroy them. She would set toys on you if you were sitting down, and throw them at you if you ignored her. Once, she threw a hard toy at her Mom's face and broke her nose. I would never, ever play fetch with her because of her neurotic obsession. My roomie would tell her to stop, tell her she's annoying, tell her to STFU, then an hour later would finally throw it for her... conditioning her to learn that she needs to annoy you for a really long time before she gets to play! Ugh I just hated it. Once, she threw the toy over my head (sitting on the couch) and down the hallway. I had a plate with pizza and ranch on it. She jumped ON my plate, and over my head, getting ranch and pizza everywhere. That dog made me never want a BC again, while I had to live with her... of course meeting other awesome BCs changed that but she was a nightmare.

I just watched my dogs eat then let them run outside ahead of me.

I've been pwned

I completely agree with all of you guys. I was thinking trying to stay on top of all those little things to show you're "alpha" would be a hassle and would ruin your relationship, because you would be to busy staying with those "dominant techniques".

Oh, I've read another thing on a website. Says that if your dog has food aggression issues, it's because they think their dominant and you have to stay away from "their prize". What do you think about that? Do you agree or no??

It said to cure food aggression, you have to walk up to your dog when he/she's eating a bone or food, and block him/her from the food. It said if your dog growls, you have to stay having a confident mind and firmly tell them NO. I disagree with this last part because i'm thinking, what if the owner gets a little nervous because you know, your own dog is growling at YOU baring his/her teeth. Umm, how are they suppose to be firm and confident when their dog does that to them???

Do you guys think that's a good way to cure food aggression? If not, I would love to hear your techniques.

What about the breeds like Rottweilers, Cane Corsos, Dobermans, etc. Every website I go to read info about them, like their temperament, the websites say that they require firm leadership because they are strong willed. At first I always thought it meant doing all those dominant techniques. So if it's actually not, what do they mean?? Is it the NILIF technique or what????

Dogs guard food because it's theirs. How would you feel if you were eating dinner and I just came up and took it away from you with no explanation? Insulted, hurt, betrayed? Or if you were really hungry and I stood between you and a delicious plate of food saying NO BAD Halee!! You'd probably get really defensive over your food after that. Why wouldn't a dog do the same?

That example is a terrible way to mitigate food aggression. At worst, you (and anyone that comes near the dog when it has a high value item) will get bit. At best your dog will lose trust in you and stop or taper off warning signs (ie growling). Growling is good. I want my dog to growl because that's a clear sign that I am doing something wrong. If the dog doesn't growl they're much more likely to go straight to a bite, which results in the "But I didn't do anything Rover just snapped!!" stories.

I have a resource guarder that gets growly and pissy when you come near his delicious stuff. The trading game has worked wonders. I took a dead squirrel away from him the other day by "trading" for it. I offered him a handful of treats and he gladly gave up the squirrel. Hand feeding (part of NILIF) also helps a lot - he can't get guardy over something that's in my possession. If you feed out of bowls you can drop delicious little tid bits into the dog's bowl while they're eating. They'll come to associate you coming near their food with something wonderful happening. Eventually you can progress to messing with their food, trading for their food, taking away the bowl to add something, etc. These are kind of simplistic explanations and other people can explain it better, but that's how I fix resource guarding.

Yeah I'd say it's staying in control, which is the basis of NILIF. If you're controlling the food, shelter (sleeping place), and procreation of your dog you're already in charge. There is no reason to do all the things listed in your first post to prove it.

All a good leader ever is, ever needs to do is to control resources. There is no need to be conscious of rank or status or dominance because that's not relevant. We have control over dogs' food, toys, whether they get to go outside or for a walk...all the things they like and need because we have opposable thumbs and bigger brains, with the exception of these people who believe in the dominance panacea and some made up pack theory thing, complete with the use of intimidation, threats, bullying, disregard of how dogs are, and the speaking of some abstract language dogs do not understand.

Taqroy explained it well. To block the dog from getting his food, to worry him that it will be taken away only makes the dog more defensive. How else did they evolve so successfully if they hadn't guarded their food? It's completely normal behavior. There are steps that can be taken to help a dog that is worried about his stuff which can be tailored and fine tuned according to the individual dog and the level of severity of the resource guarding. If the dog gets upset when someone comes near his bowl, eliminate a bowl for a while and hand feed, asking the dog to do a few tricks or obedience skills for it. (there's more, but that's the gist) Trading, as Taqroy mentioned is always a good thing to do with new puppies, along with teaching the pup to "play" retrieve. With dogs that have these issues and even new puppies, when one needs to take a toy away, it's a good idea to trade for a piece of meat or cheese...something really yummy and better than the thing that is being taken.... and even give back the toy for a spell and repeat until it's finally time to put the toy away. This should be made into a game with the human having a cheerful and playful attitude. Dogs are so receptive to that. They learn that not only do they get something better than the toy in trade, but they even get the toy back. It's a win win for the dog. Dogs can learn that they get the things they want contingent on their behavior. When someone says, "wanna go for a walk?" why not do that right after the dog displays a wanted behavior? "wanna go outside?" Sit and wait first. Wanna continue the walk? Walk nicely without pulling. People teach their dogs to pull on the leash by continuing the walking forward with tension in the leash. Reinforce behaviors you want with something the dog wants.

And first and foremost, the most important tool in the tool box of training is your relationship with your dog. How effectively would you work and what kind of feeling would you have toward a boss that is harsh, unfair, who has unrealistic expectations of you as a human being? What kind of respect would you have for someone like that? And what kind of respect would you have for someone who is not domineering, who is fair, who gives you rewards for work well done, who explains what they want in terms you can understand? Trust in a benevolent leader is the foundation of a good working and companionable relationship. I swear, people forget dogs are animals and don't have our same value system and don't have morals. They don't work like that. But people continue to expect things from dogs when they refuse to understand dogs first.

If I'm eating a steak and you reach for it, I'd stab you with my knife.

Food aggression is completely natural and based in survival instincts.

I solve it by tossing yummier food at my dog while he eats so he learns that my presence near his food is a good thing.

So, from the looks of what you guys say about these "dominant" techniques, looks like being the dominant one is complete hogwash! :O

So misbehaved or spoiled dogs just have a lack of training and haven't been taught manners?? And here all along I thought it was just because the dog thought he/she was dominant! LOL!

Certainly spoiled dogs can learn that they can get away with being pushy little arseholes. A lot of people would call that dominance, but that's kind of a useless term. What they need is training and behavior modification directly targeting what they're doing wrong. Simply stopping them from going through doors first or eating before them won't do sweet screw all!

I do think that if you are frequently "dominating" or intimidating the dog, it may learn to back off quicker when you get after it for something. But it isn't the act of e.g., going through the door first that does anything

Yeah all that's hogwash, I use to believe in it but I don't now, as far as feeding mine only get fed once a day (they won't eat in the am... They are anxious to go out) but inest in thr morning, so there are times they eat & I don't or I don't & they do etc.....

My dogs do a lot of things that trainers like CM would consider 'dominance' or trying to take over: they go thru doors first, we feed them human food (as long as its good for them, if it's not we simply ignore them & they get bored with staring at us). I think that it's been proven time & again that if you ignore an unwanted behavior long enough it will cease to happen, then you have an opportunity to train a new behavior .

OT: Stick around, please!!

That's what I always thought was dumb about temperament testing techniques. Some shelters even go so far as to use a fake hand to pull away the dog dish to avoid getting bitten. I never could figure out the point of that exercise. Obviously you don't want a dog to go for your throat if you just walk past them eating, but testing them by taking their food away is just being mean.

What about the breeds like Rottweilers, Cane Corsos, Dobermans, etc. Every website I go to read info about them, like their temperament, the websites say that they require firm leadership because they are strong willed. At first I always thought it meant doing all those dominant techniques. So if it's actually not, what do they mean?? Is it the NILIF technique or what????

I don't know quite how to describe the technique. It's just having the right mindset...like facing an obnoxious human child...when you're a seasoned human parent you learn not to take nonsense from anybody. You don't need to get loud or nutso, it's just about calmly being in control of the situation. If I say Sophie's name in a certain way she lays out with all four feet up. I've never disciplined her more than pulling her collar when she gets too close to the rat cage. But she accepts my authority...waaay better than the human kids in fact.