20 week abortions...

Oh Im with you but I also think in some cases a younger girl (like the age I was) would make it based on him and I know if I wanted one with Bev that my ex NEVER would have given his written consent. He would have actually tried to take me to court Im sure.

ETA: basically I dont think the LAW should give the father rights until the baby is born just for cases like that. I think the MOTHER should hear the father out and hear his side. On the flip side of that IF the father and mother agree that he wants nothing to do with it and she goes against what HE wants he should be able to sign something saying that so she cant force him to pay child support.

^^^ Mostly how I feel too. Men can come and go, but once a woman has a kid, she's stuck with it until the state deems her unfit(which, unfortunately, even the craziest, looniest women don't get deemed unfit these days).

also I didnt mean the mother had to agree that he wanted nothing to do with it. Just that they had the conversation and she was aware. Sorry its early and a certain baby saps my brain LOL.

I agree with you 100% Breeze. Long and short, its the woman saddled with the baby from conception until it moves out.

The bolded part I disagree with. Go check out a site called Legally Kidnapped. It shows that social Services will legally kidnap kids from anyone. Whether they are fit parents or not. It is a huge issue in many countries and is rampant in the US and Canada.

if a mother wants an abortion and the father has a right to say that she carry it to term, then he should fully be prepared to take that baby when its born and care for it 100%... same if its the other way around

That too. I just see too many men saying that and then disappearing when its time. Whats to protect the woman then? Put the baby up for adoption thats all well and good but she shouldnt be FORCED to do it because the man decided his wants were more important. I just think there are to many ways around ANY rule to make one.

^ In addition to that, the father is not the one who's body is changing (irreversibly in some ways), and who could die from childbirth. It wouldn't matter to me if the father said he would look after it because it's not just that I don't want a kid, it's also that I don't want to be pregnant and go through birth. I have a major medical phobia and also suspect I am a tokophobe (fear of pregnancy and childbirth - some women with such phobias even get PTSD from the experience) so it's not just about the kid after.

Ultimately, women's choice. I think it's fair to discuss it with the father but definitely not his choice.

The other thing to consider is potential lost wages and/or job due to the pregnancy. Sure, there are laws that protect pregnant women, but there are loopholes, and they only apply to larger companies. I pretty much lost my job when I had to go on bed rest then had Syd. Good thing I had my husband's salary and savings for us to fall back on. I can't even imagine a single woman with an unwanted pregnancy in the same situation. Who is going to take care of her?

And considering a women just not wanting to carry a baby.

There is emotion stress, health risks, not to mention stigma and life changing problems that comes with being pregnant for 9 months and carrying a baby to term. it's a women's right to decide wether she wants to do that or not

I think this depends which side of the fence you're stood.

If you knew how DIFFICULT it is to remove kids, costly, time consuming and how many people you need to sign on the dotted line to take the action you'll understand its only done as a very last resort.

Most parents are in total denial about their circumstances. I'm aware of these websites, even know a case where a family has contributed "naming and shaming" their social worker. If they want to believe not sending their kids to school, feeding them adequately, attending to their serious health needs, exposing them to abuse, and generally letting them run feral is good parenting, then good for them.

Every experience I've had demonstrates massive effort to keep families together. There's always going to be disagreement, but courts do not favour social care (they generally hate local authorities). I know loads of cases where courts refuse to remove the children. You have to have evidence and use the 'no order principle'.

I pretty much agree with all of that on that note.

And on a related note, most courts are for the mother, especially if the parents were never married. Some states are absolutely ridiculous on their whole "for the mother" thing. I've known mothers that have driven off cliffs attempting murder/suicide with their kids....Dad still couldn't get custody. It's ridiculous. I don't know how many states are like that, but definitely north-midwest type of states like Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.

Agreed. I have always found "my kids got taken for no reason" stories difficult to swallow. Sure, I am sure it happens. I am just not sure it happens regularly.

It does not happen regularly, but it DOES happen, especially if the parents in question arent the typical conventional parents. I know of a family who was pagan. The grandma was convinced her grandchildren were going to hell so she convinced the social workers they were being sexually abused and told the children what to say (not that they said they were being abused, but she played up normal situations like "I saw my daddy's penis" etc). Because they were in a small minded town, they children were taken and placed with her. She got exactly what she wanted.

Or another one, this was in a magazine years back, was a mom who called a breastfeeding hotline because sometimes when she nursed she felt almost sexual feelings. NOT towards the baby, but from the release of hormones which is normal. Next day CPS showed up and took the baby away.

So, while I do believe in MOST cases its warranted, as an unschooling, non vaccinating, extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping family, I am aware that if you do things "different" sometimes that is all the reason they need to start an investigation...then if you have family who dont agree, well, it can turn it bad fast.

BUT, I also know of children who SHOULD be taken away and yet never are.

Sorry but my eyes were opened with my own experience as to how much the department, family and so on will lie to get what ever they want. I have since watched many families have the same happen to them. One parent creating lies, grandparents, family and so on using the system to punish and hurt and get what they want. Add to that all the issues in the social services departments themselves and you would be shocked. Workers with a criminal history of sexual abuse agianst minors, foster families and workers (including heads of departments) found to have child porn and using the foster children to make more child porn and so on. Children dieing in foster care with no info except the fact of the death released to the parents. To have blind faith in the social services program is wrong and just sticking your head in the sand. Too many people choose to keep their heads there instead of opening their eyes to the truth of the situation. Families are torn apart if a social worker decides they do not like you. Proven cases of many a social worker lieing in their case logs to keep children from families. Social workers and foster families with awful criminal records. And these are not once in a while cases. They are happening all the time. THe system needs a complete over haul. People who make false claims need to be held accountable. As it stands they can hide behind the laws to protect someone calling in. Social workers and foster families need to be more extensively checked out and so on. There are tons of things that need to be changed but until people experience the lies and their own families torn apart they won't open their eyes or help change the system and by then in is too late.

Never trust in a system that has 0 accountability to anyone and they don't. I could provide litterally thousands of links to news stories from all over the world, but mainly Canada and the US where what I have stated is a fact just in the past couple of years. But until people want to admit their is an issue in this system they won't listen anyway.

These are just a few from Alberta from just the past few weeks and this is just about deaths while kids are in foster care. These are news links that Legally Kidnapped provides links to the actual news story:
Family continues to fight for answers surrounding foster care death
http://www.leducrep.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3538582

"The government reported — between Apr. 1, 2011 and Mar. 31 — 10 children died while in care. 13 died the year earlier. Children who died due to illness while in care were included in those numbers.

The cause of the death for the 10 children were:

Five children died due to medical conditions

One youth died due to head trauma (sustained at a house party)

One child died due to homicide

The cause of death for one of the children is undetermined (according to the Medical Examiner’s report)

The cause of death for the remaining two children is pending

Delonna is included in the 10 deaths last year, but it is unknown what her official cause of death is.

“We can’t comment on any of the specifics,†said Roxanne Dube Coelho, spokesperson for Alberta Human Services."


Fatalities of children in care symbolic of ‘broken system’
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news...are+symbolic+broken+system/6481524/story.html

"Over the past decade, children apprehended by the Alberta government have been almost twice as likely to die as children in the general population, according to numbers made public for the first time Wednesday.

That’s a painful number for people who feel like their children are trapped in the system."



End publication bans in child welfare system
Parents demand more transparency and accountability
http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/publication+bans+child+welfare+system/6459363/story.html

"A group of parents demanding more openness and account-ability from Alberta's child welfare system protested in front of Calgary's courthouse on Friday.

The Children's Army wants greater oversight for caseworkers and foster parents and an end to sweeping publication bans in cases involving children who have died in care."

I apologize for being late to the game here...

Personal responsibility. I agree to a point with the premise of this thread. This thread makes me think of Grammy's Nash. I still feel privileged to have met him.

As long as the mothers health is not in question, personal responsibility of the mothers actions.

If the fetus would cost the mother her life I have no objection, and would

object to any law that would cost her life.

Sorry for necromancing this thread.

To be honest I was glad this thread died but since it is now back again...

So if you never want to have kids, should you never be allowed to have sex?



Again, a woman who never wants kids... Should she have to agree to never have sex?

No, you should be prepared for that responsibility. With experience begets responsibility.

She should take precautions and/or eliminate the chance of ever becoming pregnant.

If a man never wants to father a child he takes protection, even permanent solutions.

Dont be selfish.

ETA: No point in responding. Both men and women want to hump without restrictions or penalties. I guess Im the exception, I would gladly take care of any child I father.

But precautions sometimes fail. They don't always work. Not everyone who gets pregnant and didn't want to was irresponsible or just opting not to use contraception. My issue with your logic is that someone can still get pregnant even when being responsible, so if I really never want to have kids the only way I can guarantee that is to abstain my entire life or get surgery/invasive treatment.

Like I said before, protection does not always work. And there have been many cases, even on chaz, where people have gone in asking for a permanent solution and were denied because they were under the age of 30 and 'might change their mind'.

Well that's easy for you to say, you wouldn't be the one risking your life or mental well-being, or having to actually give birth. You know, I like the idea of having a kid. For me it has nothing to do with not wanting to take care of it, and everything to do with my phobias (BII and tokophobia) and not wanting to actually carry and deliver a baby.

And as for your other statement... I think most people who don't want kids would also like to have sex at some point in their lives, and I think its unfair to criticize and expect them to go their entire lives without ever experiencing intimacy at that level.

ETA: I should correct myself, men can obviously experience issues with their mental well-being over an unexpected pregnancy and child, I was just specifically thinking of people like me with medical phobias.

Ill reply tomorrow. Thats a lot of anger.