Favorite specimens of your breed

LOL I don't expect breeders to be at my personal beck and call because I'm someone on the internet with an opinion. But if you're calling for others to have an open mind, then I'm calling for some sort of evidence (not to me personally, obviously) beyond "well experienced breeders say so" OR someone to take the initiative to fund someone else to provide some sort of evidence. Skulking around in the shadows doesn't do much for their opinion that it can be done safely.

Well maybe that's something breeders or breed clubs should look into funding if they think it's that important to be able to do merle x merle breedings. Until then, anecdotal "evidence" and speculation aren't going to open my mind on this issue even a crack.

Yes, exactly.

My favourite breed is the Border collie and particularly I love red and whites. My ideal dog, well, is the one described here.

She says about him: I was looking for a dog with great work ethic, but not "over the top" in activity level. Plus I love the red and white Border Collie coloring!

I've met Benny at trials and at seminars and he is an awesome dog. Beautiful, sweet, loves other people, and loves to work, but he's not over the top crazy. Exactly what I want in a BC someday!

Here is a video I got of Benny running at one of the trials recently.

The only double merle I really knew well had eyes so extremely small that the CERf vet said she couldn't examine the dog's eyes without putting her under. She appeared to be missing one eye all together, although if you really looked she did have it but it was quite small and deformed. That dog was a collie. I see double merle Aussies for sale the flea market from time to time - pretty sure someone is using a double merle back to a merle because the last time I saw puppies, it seemed to be an entire litter of double merles. While none of those pups that I have seen have been eyeless, most have eye deformities either very tiny eyes, eyes of different sizes or weird pupils.

I've been around breeding a very long time, I'm no stranger to the hazards nor the ability to stack the odds in and against your favor.

I have had this same chat with friends over the use of two low OFA scored dogs to produce well hipped dogs, it happens, definitely, but in the end is it really worth the risk? Is it really so desolate that this breeding is the only one out there?

Even though I do LOVE the coloring, discussions like this make me glad that merle is not acceptable in either labs or APBTs.....

My issue with merle is that it's SO EASY to breed away from these health problems. Yes there are cryptics and there are accidents but most litters you can tell clearly that the parents are both merle. If you do not breed a merle to merle then you have ZERO chance of producing these problems.

We have a hard enough time trying to figure out more complex health problems like HD or cancer. It is extremely disheartening to me that people can't even come to a consensus about double merle.

And yes, I have known a double merle (aussie) that had severely deformed and tiny nonfunctional eyes. That's not a scare tactic, unfortunately.

Also, yes there are some very successful studs out there that are double merles. There's definitely a few in shelties. However, those are the double merles you HEAR about. Who knows how many double merles you don't hear about... Do you really think the breeders will advertise that they bred merle x merle and one of the puppies is very deformed? I really doubt that the so called good breeders are breeding merle to merle better than the 'BYBs', I just think you are not seeing the bad results.

Also, it's NOT just a show breeder thing obviously. It does happen in show breeders but it also happens in working breeders (koolies are a good example) I have personally never seen a double merle show aussie but I know this kind of breeding is done in working aussies sometimes.

Exactly! :hail:

With breeding things often come down to "It depends...".

So much of people's decisions depend on their experience and personal comfort level. There is no one answer that will fit all breeders when it comes down to high vs. low risk breeding (not that all breeders could ever agree on what is high vs low risk in the first place ). Some breeders take risks I wouldn't and I've taken risks others wouldn't. Sometimes that breeding you thought would go great doesn't. Sometimes the accidental breeding you'd never have purposefully done turns out awesome. And everything in between. If you look hard enough and people are honest enough, you'll find can find not so great possibilities lurking in the pedigree of just about any potential breeding in some way or another.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't research, research, research and research some more. It doesn't mean you shouldn't make informed breeding decisions. But it is what it is. There is a lot of "It depends..." in breeding.

Never say never. You don't know where you will end up in your breeding program, and what chances you are going to have to take. If I could quote Aleron's post 1000x it wouldn't be enough.

Just keep in mind, some people are willing to make the tough decisions and some aren't, thats why theres a niche for everyone. Not everyone was cut out to be a breeder.

I want to touch on the breeding of dogs with lower rated hips. Judge is from 2 OFA Fair parents. But the breeder knows the lines and knew that they would produce better than themselves. They did. But the breeder is using health testing to help her program and improve it. Big difference in something you can test for and something you can't, (merle).

On the subject of Cardigans, I find my favorite dogs are long dead, sadly. The breed has been extensively warped by the show ring to have shorter and shorter legs. They have always had plenty of natural variation, but if you look at the early dogs, their shortest legged dogs were about as leggy as our leggiest modern Cardis. While some early Cardigans appear to have some structural flaws regarding angulation, the fact remains that those early dogs did the work; today's dogs rarely do more than hobby herding, no matter how "correct" they are, and are I'll take the workers, please.

The breed is actually extensively variable in type (even within the same litter). They're also extensively variable regarding what will finish in the AKC ring, and even more variable in UKC and other venues.

Honestly, I can't STAND the heads, necks, chests, and fronts on most male "show quality" Cardigans. Despite the fact that it's in direct contradiction to the standard show breeders are theoretically breeding for, so many male Cardigan have round, domed, almost Chihuahua-esque apple heads with little beady eyes and blocky, heavy muzzles. Then you get the thick, stuffy neck and the chest that barely clears the ground. Not my cup of tea.

Keeva's sire is a nice example of a moderate male that's well on his way to finishing his AKC CH.

422640_10151314933910392_545530391_23201975_1306164523_n by Emily / DreamEyce, on Flickr

The single Cardigan I drool over the most phenotypically is Bob Llwyd (sometimes spelled Lloyd):



When the original breed standard was drafted by the Welsh breed association (Cardigan Welsh Corgi Association) in 1926, it was based on Bob Llwyd. He has good length of leg and appears to be agile without being too fine-boned. Certainly sturdy enough to take a kick from an angry cow and live to work again. Nice, moderate chest and neck, handsome head that's foxy and keen. And again, nice "long" legs. Love him... to bad he was born almost 100 years ago. That standard also allowed dogs up to 13".

All of this. I adore Cardigans in general but I really dislike how heavy boned most of them are. The overly round head also drives me CRAZY.

*drools* He is gorgeous.

I think so too. I'm looking for a picture of his head in profile to show how nice it is!

Keeva's sire is one nice-looking guy!

I'm glad I'm not alone then. I sure thought that stuffy, overly thick neck and bordering on roman nose was unattractive but figured I didn't know the breed well enough and maybe the pems I grew up with were too moderate.

I knew a guy when I lived in Poland that had a lovely lightly built, athletic male Carrot. I was quite taken with the dog. Then he got a half sibling that was more typical. I suspect that the first dog was a happy accident.

Pics or it did not happen!

I was just looking through his Flickr set and WOW. I think I love him. And I have to get Tipper to stack so I can get a picture because structurally (except for the tail) she looks a lot like him. Or maybe I'm crazy but at least then you guys can let me know. Lol.

EDIT: Actually looking at later pictures of him, she actually has finer bone structure I think. Still. Similar.

OH MY GOSH! I thought I was the only one! I have the EXACT feelings about Pems! Those doG fugle toy breed heads! Eyes practically popping out of their skulls. Legs so short and chest to heavy they sweep the floor, clunky dogs who bounce up more when moving instead of nicely flowing out. My Corgi, like my grandmothers GSD's, just don't seem to exist anymore.

Oh heck. Carrot = Cardigan and Poland = Portland. I've never lived in Europe.

Gotta love autocorrect.