Sport Mixes

Do you know this for fact? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just curious. I don't know much about sport mixes - but I think that if the breeders are doing health tests, temperament tests and proving that their dogs are performance dogs I have no problem with them breeding mixes. If a BYB was doing all those things and producing maltipoos I'd have no problem with that either.

And honestly I think the price argument is ridiculous. Supply and demand - why shouldn't a reputable breeder charge what people are willing to pay? I think too many reputable breeders undercut themselves as it is - breeding dogs shouldn't be a charity.

You may want to go back and re-read the thread.

If they are getting dumped in shelters because they didn't work out then there is a serious disconnect. Goes back to that whole picking the right home/being there for the pup through his lifetime thing. If the pup doesn't work out for whatever reason there should be a contractual obligation to return him to the breeder before he ever sees a shelter.

Second, there is a continuum of sport competitors. There are those who like the truly off the charts type dogs. And there are a whole lot more who want a super drivey dog but down a notch. Then there are a lot of new people in the sport or people who compete casually who just want a pretty good dog to compete with but aren't ready for high octane or would be great with a dog whose structure is good but not ideal because they don't work them as hard. And there are people who just want a nice pet.

If the dogs are being bred for good health and a solid temperament, there will always be a place for them no matter where their drive ends up on that chart.

I meant all over the place as in breeds being used.

Who says they are going to unsuspecting homes or getting dumped in a shelter? A good breeder regardless of the breed they are breeding will properly screen homes and ensure that their dogs do not get dumped.

It is ridiculously hard to get a pup from one of the good sportmix breeders, they want their puppies to have homes for life and will not sell a high energy dog to an unsuspecting home. If they do, they are considered an irresponsible breeder, has NOTHING to do with the breed they are breeding.

There are BYB border collie breeders all over the place selling high energy dogs to unsuspecting homes and they are getting dumped at shelters. But that's ok because they are purebred? No, just like it wouldn't be ok for a sportmix breeder to do the same.

You are assuming that just because they are breeding a mix that they are not doing the exact if not more screening as a purebred breeder. That's a big thing to assume.

I am not really assuming anything about the breeders...I just dont like the idea of breeding mixes for sport. Just not something I could support. I think there are plenty of already standing breeds and mixes that are perfectly capable of excelling at them. To each their own.

Oh, and to add, I didnt mean that the less than ideal mixes are dumped, I just mean then you have just your run of the mill mutt...which we already have a buttload of.

Or going to homes that just want to dabble in sports... Or they like to do other activities with their dogs like hiking... Or they are really into sports but prefer a lower drive dog.

What happens to all the great danes that arn't show quality? They end up taking up pet homes.

The point about mixing mutts not breeding true isn't really applicable either because many of these breeders are breeding multiple generations to really hone in on the temperaments and drives they are looking for. Unfortunately, you just can't start off with generations backing up with a breed right from scratch.

No, then you have a lower drive dog with known ancestry whose parents were health-tested, who had a fabulous start to life, and whose breeder will be there for you if ever you find yourself in a situation where the dog needs a safe place to land.

Seems a bit idealistic to me.

Ok, well how many breeds today are being bred for someone's livelihood? Not many. Conformation isn't a livelihood that is needed but it's something most people are perfectly ok with breeding dogs for.

And no, there aren't plenty of dogs and breeds already that would make a great competitive sport dog. That's the reason sport mixes exist. There are breeds that tend to lend themselves well to those but even then the dogs typically are being altered. Look at sport border collies, they are being altered from their original farm counterparts. Why? Because people wanted faster, more toy drive etc.

I really don't see any difference from creating purpose bred mixes to altering different purebred dogs to fit a different job.

Everyone seems to think any dog that wants to run can be a really competitive sport dog and that's simply not true. There are a lot of dogs that have the heart but the body isn't built for it or they have the body for it but not the heart. It's a good mix of attributes that really make for a sport dog and they aren't that easy to find especially if you narrow yourself to purebreds or dogs in a shelter.

......it's the reason most people go to a breeder for a purebred dog.

While in theory there is no issue, the reality of sport mixes is not as glorious as many think. They are puppymilled by many, byb'd by others, and cycled through/dumped but even more. Is this different than purebreds? nope. But I wouldn't romanticize sportdog breeders after having interacted with that world for several years.

I have one gal I find credible for a BW. I have none for BS. I have no desire to own a BJ. The Maze dogs seem nice but I'm not sure about their consistency.

We've gone up and down this topic before, it tends to have the same arguments. Neither are invalid and neither are truly realistic, imo.

I have yet to find a pure breed that consistently runs sub-fours in flyball and is 16" or shorter. Nearly all of the top flyball teams are running flyball mixes as their height dogs.

So no there aren't "plenty" of breeds that fill this niche. Is it an important niche? To those who are at the top of the flyball world it is. Could you find a suitable dog in a shelter? Maybe, with a lot of time and effort. I've yet to see these "plenty" of sport prospects in the shelters around here.

I get it that people don't like the breeding of dogs just for sport. I don't like the breeding of dogs just for conformation shows, so I figure fair's fair. What I don't get is why the opinion of pure breed vs mixed breed is different. If you're breeding for really high dogs, it doesn't matter if they're purebred field Labs or mixed breed flyball mutts. They aren't going to be suitable for a casual pet home. And there are going to be dogs who don't measure up. What do you do with those dogs? Why is it any different purebreed to mixed breed?

All of this. Just because it doesn't fill your niche doesn't mean it's not a niche that needs to be filled.

FWIW it's worth I wasn't trying to romanticize sports breeders as being a cut above, but saying that to be a good breeder IMO you need to do _______ and if you're doing those things then I have no problem with it, regardless of the purpose for which they are breeding (assuming that purpose is legal and humane of course ) or whether they are breeding mixes or purebreds.

^^^Double agree. I love how breeding for extremes in appearances for conformation is okay yet breeding for extremes in performance isn't.

Yeah I'm just here jumping on the "great post!" wagon

I would challenge anyone to try and find a solid sport dog in shelters where I live. They rarely come through and there is often a demand for that type. The majority of dogs in shelters here are rottie, husky and lab mixes.

I think people are assuming sport breeders are breeding irresponsibly because there is a lot of mention of sport mixes ending up in shelters. If dogs from your breeding program are ending up in shelters, you are a bad breeder whether you are producing purebreds or mix breeds. I support RESPONSIBLE breeding, which I think can extend to both pure and mixes.

What about run of the mill purebreds that we also have a butt load of? All those byb labs etc. Does that mean lab breeders who are doing it well should also stop.

One of the sport mix breeders around here uses dogs who have been to worlds and ends up getting pups who are **** amazing! Just because its not for you (I totally agree with.. I think Elegy) who said that they aren't for breeding for confo shows..) doesn't mean its bad. Bad breeders are bad breeders regardless of what they are breeding. And just because you don't understand something doesn't mean other people don't.

actually no. In some cases mixes produce very reliable results. And in other cases continuously breeding makes it harder. For an easy example take doodles. F1 generations are pretty easy to predict, esp if you use good stock. The problem is as you keep breeding you loose the doodle attributes and end up back with more poodle and more retriever type pups. There is more homogenousness in the F1 generations than the subsequent ones. Lurchers are another example (which is why whippet crosses are mentioned so much) Lurchers are another cross that produces excellent dogs reliably (when the orginal parents are quality) with reliable attributes.

So while yes it can take generations, some crosses work well simply by the nature of not going past the F1, F2 generations.

No one is claiming they are good pets. They aren't bred, sold or raised for people looking for a dog who's just a good pet. And breeding for the purpose of sport pretty much means there is mostly thought given to temperament - the dogs are being selected for certain temperament traits which make them able to excel at sports.

How many sport mixes end up in shelters because breeders who are active in sport and bred them for sport sold them to unsuspecting families looking for easy pets? How do these unsuspecting families looking for easy pets end up deciding to buy a sport mix to begin with? How do they know how to find breeders of them?

It doesn't tend to work that way though. Flyball is a sport that teams compete at in divisions against like teams (in terms of speed). So maybe a dog doesn't have what it takes to be on the most competitive teams in the most competitive division. That doesn't mean there aren't people competing in other divisions who would be happy to have the dog for their team. I actually have yet to come across a pet owner with a sport bred mix. Not saying they aren't out there, I'm sure the occasional one may go to a pet home. However, the sport mixes I have seen have always been with people who bought them for what they were and were active in dog sports at some level. They aren't really bred for pets, aren't promoted as pets and aren't dogs most pet owners even know exist. Actually, I suspect a lot of dog people don't know about them either.


Why is it acceptable to breed purebreds specifically for sport (which would be breeding for traits beyond what is typical or historically correct for that breed in terms of size, temperament and drive) but breeding for the same thing in mixes is unacceptable?

Livelihood in terms of needing a certain type of dog to survive or allow earn your income is rarely a factor in breeding dogs in modern times. Very few breeds and even fewer individual dogs are bred these days because their owner's livelihood depends on the next generation being born. If that became the criteria for who could and could not breed their dog, I'm afraid that most breeds would quickly become extinct.


This is it in nutshell. You can talk all day about how in theory, people who want mixes for sports should just get shelter dogs. Or how in theory, we have plenty of breeds to fulfill any purpose. But in truth, there have always been purpose bred mixes to fill the niches that purebreds (or at least purebreds that are reasonably obtainable for the people wanting them) can not or do not. In truth, purebreds and random bred mixes are not the dogs making and breaking flyball records.

That's fine, you don't need to like it. It'd be pretty boring if everyone had the same likes and dislikes when it comes to dogs. We certainly wouldn't have so many unique breeds or types of dogs if that were the case However, that doesn't mean that it's wrong, causing problems (filling shelters with dogs, burdening unsuspecting owners with high drive dogs, taking homes away from shelter dogs, etc, etc) or that it really has much to do with anyone except the people breeding or buying the dogs.