Normal ACD behavior?

So FOHA has this red ACD named Kloie (I call her FOHA's own Evil Reddog). She was adopted out to some people, did pretty well with those people, but was returned recently due to a really stupid situation. Kloie was on a leash with her people when two off-leash dogs ran up to them, I don't know if it was an attack or if there were injuries to any dog, but after that Kloie "became DA" (my guess is she became dog reactive, not surprising for an ACD). Her people rented a condo, and the owners of it told them to get rid of Kloie after that, so back she came I guess. I feel bad for the dog, none of it was her fault.

At the shelter Kloie hates most people, and is very cage aggressive, barking and snapping and snarling at anyone who approaches. She was the same way the first time she was at FOHA too (when I still worked there), and even though I gave her treats all the time, she NEVER warmed up to me. In fact, when I let her out in the yard once, she charged me snapping right after I had given her cheese! The only time I was able to touch that dog was when she was out with a former volunteer named Ren (who is no longer there because of stupidity I won't go into). Ren was Kloie's Person, and Kloie was a different dog when Ren was around. With everyone else she would either tolerate them for a walk or outright be aggressive to them.

What I'm wondering, is that a normal temperament for an ACD? I really haven't been around purebred ACDs.

I've heard of some ACDs being extreme 1 person dogs, but that is *not* normal behavior for them. If anything they see to turn inward in a shelter when stressed. We saw a LOT more very shy ACDs than aggressive ones at the shelter I worked at.

It boggles my mind that a shelter would even consider placing a dog that severely cage aggressive.

I've seen some that were total attention whores and would go home with anyone (Dally, lol) as well as some who couldn't care less about people other than their owner, but to be that outright aggressive isn't normal ACD behaviour. They aren't dogs that cope well in a kennel environment so maybe it was a habit picked up caused by anxiety, or maybe she had a crappy upbringing, or maybe she was just badly bred. Could be a lot of different factors! Not normal though.

The DA isn't uncommon, especially in females. I've known a few bitches who were really, really nasty with other dogs. I've known quite a few males who were surprisingly tolerant of other dogs. Never met a HA ACD though.

Sounds sharp shy to me which is unfortunate - very unfortunate. Sharpness is fairly standard in cattle dogs - they are after all cattledogs. Shyness happens - it especially happens when dogs are thrown in situations where there is not a clear establishment of order or familiarity - not uncommon when you're dealing with a dog in a loud - chaotic animal shelter. This is not going to be a dog who will be your best friend because you hand her a treat and add in her fear and she's going to try to take out sources of that discomfort before it can take out her.

If this dog is going to be saved I'd contact a rescue, sanctuary, or foster system. This will only get worse in a shelter environment IMO.

Poor dog. Can you try to transfer her to a cattle dog rescue?

Seems like all the normal ACD "bad" traits magnified.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Actually, I have met some dogs who were very cage aggressive, but completely fine when you had them out. Some dogs just don't handle being in a kennel well at all. For example, FOHA has a yellow lab mix named Brandy who acts like a slobbering maniac in her kennel, but get her out and she's happy go lucky and friendly to everyone. And most dogs do get over it when you start giving them treats through the kennel. They go "oh, humans approaching my kennel is a Good Thing, I get yummies!" And actually, I did get Kloie to stop barking at me when I walked by the first time she was at FOHA by giving her treats every time I walked by. It got to the point she would just lay there. Still didn't make her friendly when she was out though (unless she was with Ren. Then you could pet her and love on her and do whatever. The dog had split personalities!)

Its not likely FOHA would release Kloie to another rescue, but I'll see what I can do. There aren't many ACD contacts in the area (so far I've only found one on google).

Oh I know full well that cage aggression doesn't always mean that the dog is HA, but it does mean the dog is highly stressed and is indicative of a dog who, at minimum, needs some sort of help to deal with this stress more constructively.

The shelter I worked at didn't have the luxury of space to work with all dogs with behavior problems, but when we did have the space/time to work with a dog showing some of this type of behavior we moved the dog to a low traffic kennel, used a screen on the front of the kennel (just a large piece of a solid color shower curtain cut to fit lol), *and* paired it with some classical conditioning work like you described a bit in your post (humans = yummy treats). Perhaps some of this might help keep Brandy and Kloie sub-threshold more.

When I worked at the shelter, I had a ACD like that. Now, keep in mind that this was before Chaz and I was only 15 years old, so you have a leg up on me there.
I was Pandora's Ren, and she would have gladly laid her life down for me. Everyone else could burn as far as she was concerned. I tried with her almost every day, using almost 100% PR training. Granted, it was a kind of cobbled together training and I would have done better with her now, knowing what I do, but I don't think I did too bad with her.
She and I battled it out for six months before it became obvious that Pandora really had a grand total of two choices. She could go home with me, or she could be PTS. She was too much of a liability to do anything else with.
Since my parents were not exactly thrilled at the thought of a HA cattle dog coming to live with us, especially considering that college was on the horizen in a few years, we made the decision to let her go.
It broke miy heart, and, had it happened today, I would have taken her, no questions asked, but even then I knew she was a liability.
Sorry that I don't have any concrete advice for you

I would say it sounds normal but not "correct"
To me a correct ACD should be a one person dog, not overly tolerant but able to live in the real world. But many, many ACD's become those extreme one person dogs, Harry was an example of one (although his was magnified by what we think were probably bad early experiences in the critical period and bad genetics)

Its why people don't pat Buster when I'm out with him, most people understand that if a dog is blue or red, you just don't touch it.

Wow, I wish people here understood that. People love Mu (I get it, she's small and cute and has pretty markings) but she does NOT love them back. I think she typifies the ACD temperament pretty well - able to function without me but functions better with me.

TBH there's a tooon of differences in true Australian ACDs and American ACDs, so you may also need to keep that in mind. From what I've learned from hanging out on ACD boards that have members from both N. America and Aus the breed in Aus is much sharper, and more one person than it is here.

I didn't know that but it does seem obvious that they'd be a lot different. I have the derp today. Mu is a lot less tolerant than any ACD I've met around here but has a lot in common with them otherwise. Maybe she'll soften up as she matures.

please direct me to these cattledog boards.

thank you

AuCaDo - The Front Page is the main page for the forums - full of good people with all levels of ACD experience, breeders, rescue folks, those with one or many, and from all over the world. It's a good group, though like all boards it does have its own culture and hot button topics. LOL

thanks!!!

That doesn't really sound normal for any ACD I have ever worked with. They usually aren't supposed to be aggressive. Maybe she just needs to go work on a ranch? Sounds like that would benefit her. Sitting in a kennel is not good for the working dogs like ACDs they need a job and not a pet home.