Breeding a disqualifying fault.

Interesting debate the other day about Beagles.

In Canada and the US over 15" in a DQ. However by FCI standards they can be up to 16". Now Solo is 14.5" but has FCI dogs in her pedigree so I need to be careful on who I breed her too.

I am considering Parker, who is also 14.5". However with him there is a good chance the puppies could be over 15". Now I could breed to Louie who is 13" and his lines are known for producing smaller with larger dogs.

For sake of argument lets say I use Parker and get puppy X. Puppy X finished it's Ch quickly but at 1yr old turns out to be 15.5". Now puppy X is a great example of the breed. Great pedigree, and great confo. Within FCI standard although not CKC/AKC.

You could breed puppy X back to Louie and get smaller dog, but breeding a dog with a DQ fault is a no no. But it isn't a DQ in some countries.

The debate is do you breed puppy X? Yes or No?

There is always a chance of breeding an oversize pup even if both parents are tiny. If both the dogs are quality, size and color really don't matter. I'm sure the rabbits don't mind.

To me there are a lot of qualities you are not mentioning. Height is not huge issue. Is the most important thing getting a ch?

Who's dogs are these? just curious

I wouldn't do it.
Especially with such a popular breed..why not just find a sire that suits your female perfectly, height and all?

again, I don't know a thing about breeding and maybe if it was a smaller fault, I might feel differently. but I feel like height is a pretty major deal.. especially since both sire and dam are kind of on the taller side

I'm comfortable breeding a fault if other attributes outweigh the fault. I'd reconsider why you are breeding to a fault and judge the worthiness of the dog.

Eh... a cosmetic DQ? Not a big deal at all to me. It wouldn't bother me one bit if a breeder had bred an otherwise great dog that was DQ'd for a cosmetic reason. Now, if the fault had a direct impact on the dog or it's ability to perform, then no.

Also is a matter of how far off you are. Does the dog have the a little bit of white on it's ear or is the ear completely white? (For example in papillons) Is the dog a half an inch too tall or several inches? Makes a difference imo.

We shouldn't make it a point to breed dogs that are DQ'd but that doesn't mean that no DQ'd dogs can contribute positively to the breed either.

To me, height is probably the least of my worries. There will always be people who prefer larger or smaller than standard. That doesn't mean you should intentionally breeds huge or tiny dogs, but the fact is *someone* will want a healthy, temperamentally sound dog even if it is half an inch too tall. There are SO many other factors to consider -health, conformation, temperament, etc. Plus like you said, it's not a DQ in some venues, so it is really THAT bad? What's wrong with having an FCI Ch, as opposed to an AKC/UKC Ch.? What about performance? I guess to me a conformation Ch. isn't everything. It's nice, of course, and not a bad thing to have by any means, but I guess to be it's not the end of the world if a dog can't get a Ch. as long as it's physically and mentally sound, and otherwise a good example of the breed. Limiting your breeding stock to ONLY those that are short might breed out some otherwise very desirable traits.

I myself prefer dogs on the taller end of the standard in my breeds. Logan is right at 26", maybe a tad taller, and that is the upper limit for collies in height (granted they don't have a height DQ, but it is a fault). Same with standard poodles - I actually would prefer one on the taller side, so long as it isn't bred JUST to be tall and is unhealthy as a result.

I was assuming that Puppy X was a quality dog in other ways conformationaly, temperment, drive, ect..

I agree with Laur.

I think if the breeder has the knowledge and experience to stand back and evaluate their stock without having to show it (same with the horses - so many people are "barn blind" to their own stock, but if a breeder has been in the biz for 40+ years, knows the market, has shown and seen/been on the best of the best, has the experience and can accuratately judge the horse I won't fault them for breeding an unshown horse), breeding a small DQ that doesn't negatively affect the dog is OK IF the dog is outstanding in all other ways and would better the breed, so to speak.

As long as you have homes who will not be upset if their dog goes 'oversize' due to CKC standards, I'd breed for the best health and conformation and hope for the right height. You're dealing with such a small number (an inch or less) that it's all a crapshoot anyway - it's not like it's a 5 inch difference!

Do the judges make a habit of wicketing Beagles?

Yup. Seen it done alot if the dog is close.

i think it is fascinating that a dog can finish a Ch and then become disqualifiable.

Even then they should be seeking the opinion of other experienced people in their breed for an objective eye to ensure they are not being biased. Which in theory is kind of the point of showing (not saying just conformation showing here) but doesn't necessarily have to take the form of showing under certain circumstances.

One of the sketchier aspects of finishing a puppy then never showing him/her again. I've wondered what the value is of evaluating an immature dog as breeding stock, but that's not really my arena.

On a beagle it wouldnt' bother me. Its only part of the 'on paper ideal' A little extra height is not going to affect health, temperament or working ability. so Meh.

If the perfect male match for Kat had brindle markings (a JRT DQ) I would go for it. Doesn't affect anything I wish to do with the dog, nor actually affect the dog's working ability.

Then again I don't breed for the show ring, I do try to stay true to the breed. No two dogs are equal though. So I would pick the best male for the bitch. If she throws large pups, and height is a problem (some breeds tall is hard to breed out) then the male would have to be really nice. Lets say he was structurally great, awesome temperament and had good working ability and maybe a CD.. then it would be worth it to me.

IMO, there are no perfect matches, only "pretty **** close." If there were perfect matches, there would be perfect puppies, and I have yet to see a perfect dog. Just had to get that out because I am hearing more and more people explain "they just found the perfect match EVAR" and I just chuckle, wait to see these perfect puppies (because if the cross is perfect, why aren't the puppies?), and all that excitement for nothing :lol-sign:

To me, wouldn't be a deal breaker (breeding an oversized dog), but I would not breed a pair if the possibility of producing oversized was more than producing correct.

I am so glad that a dog HAS to earn at least 3 of it's 5 qualifying CC points after the age of 2 in South Africa. It takes out so much of the doubt.

Not for me. . . Tho lots of people say "finish them quick" because something might change or go off (size, bite), there are a lot more mature dogs who have more coat/furnishings that have faults hidden or corrected (obviously Beagles are a different story, lol). A puppy with hardly any furnishings is going to make it hard to hide faults than a 2 year old with hair that can easily be trimmed to make a dog appear a certain way. Then again I never use show results (or pics) as a way to tell me if the dog is good or not. I trust my hands/eyes more than some of the ones in the ring. If there was a puppy I really liked but finished early, I would still want to go over them before considering breeding to them - that removes much more doubt. Not at what age a dog finished.

Sorry to get off topic OP!

Unless a judge is incompetent (which happens) they shouldnt' be tricked by a pretty hair do.

I also like rules that state dogs must be mature. Not just for people to breed too. But lets say a breeder finishes a lot of their dogs as pups and pets them out. Looks good for their 'stats'. But is it because their dogs are good, or just are better as puppies?

That^

I wouldnt breed with a size difference that is out of standard if you are breeding for the ring IMO. I would want to weigh everything in my favor. I also would want to take the dog to some shows on my own before breeding if it were me. Being the owner of the bitch and possibly attend shows just to watch the male in the ring if possible.