What makes a good breeder in your mind?

:rofl1:

Sorry, just saw that :lol-sign:

And don't you know, they'll listen to other kind of faces but only if they have the secret code words as show in Babe

Awesome! I adore her!

I don't know. I've seen people on another board breeding "Border Jacks" and the like, trying to get insanely driven dogs out of the pairings.
I don't get it...other than these folks are so driven to win with their dogs they've completely lost sight of reality.
What do THEY do with the "wash outs"? Certainly a highly driven mutt is going to be a pain for a regular non-working home. Many dogs are so driven that without a "job" to do they develop tail chasing (OCD style) and other behavior issues.
Perhaps I should have clarified what I was getting at rather than assuming people would know.

They probably all go to sport homes. Just like working folks. A LOT of working folks won't sell to non-working homes.

Also, if they are a 'wash-out' like you say, that very well may not have that crazy drive.

Also, I've never met a Border Collie (how ever bred) that is SO bored they chase their tail. lol

Lizmo then you don't rescue, do you? We've seen plenty of OCD. These dogs get put into shelters and go nuts.


Oh plenty of washouts have lots of drive, just not enough to "win" and thus are a "washout". Again, go to Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder and search for any working breed...I'm sure you'll not find one fairly common breed unrepresented!

I don't think that's a reason not to breed high drive dogs...

Let's take Mia again. I know, she's 'just' a companion breed but the fact is there's three multiple MACH cousins, half siblings, and uncles as well as several more highly titled agility dogs. Believe me, she is high drive... Her breeder kept her till she found a good home for her. She has another now that is the same way and she's looking for the appropriate owner/handler. Mia would really be fine in a just pet home IF they were very active. She is really better for a sports type home. On the other hand her littermate is much much calmer and is just a pet. There's variety even in the more driven lines/families. Mia is by far the most intense papillon I've ever met (and I've met hundreds). But I knew what I wanted and what she'd be when I got her. It was not a problem to me, it was a plus.

Mia had tail chasing episodes as a pup and is somewhat OCD if you let her be. But with appropriate outlets, tons of work, and some age she's become a really nicely behaved pet. She had NO off switch for her first year and a half and is just now getting one. The point though is the breeder should be able to match people with the right dog. Many people, including my other family members, find Mia tiresome and would not have wanted to own her. But I find her delightful and she is just what I want. It's two-fold. Not everyone WANTS a calm, docile type dog. There's a market for more intense dogs but yes, you do have to be more careful about where they're placed. Just because some breeders aren't careful doesn't mean we should stop breeding these kinds of dogs though.

Border jacks are specialized dogs same with border staffs (Oh how I want a borderstaff!) They're usually very hard to get unless you have sports experience and thus usually find qualified homes that will enjoy them. The wash outs will probably go to less competitive sports homes. I haven't met any borderjacks but I know borderstaffs and they're really well balanced dogs. I think they'd be just fine in an active pet home too.

the simple fact of them being in the shelter suggests they were not responsibly bred or responsibly placed in the first place.

i've been sort of looking at a sport mix for my next dog (likely a bc x staff) and most of the breeders i've looked at are *very* hard to get puppies from. not only do they have wicked long wait lists, but they are very careful about where they're placing their puppies.

First off, take a step off your high horse and actually read what people are saying.

No one is saying dogs don't end up in rescues. Irresponsible breeders and responsible breeders breeding for a purpose are not the same thing.

ETA: Whoops, elegy beat me to it.

If the dog has drive but isn't capable of winning at top levels then there's plenty of options. Tons of people who like to dabble in sports, tons of people that want a really active hiking buddy who will play ball all day, etc.

In fact, MOST people in agility and dog sports aren't looking to trial the dog to multiple MACHs or go to nationals. There's tons of people out there looking for a dog to train with and just enjoy as they go as far as they can go (me for example. I love agility but I don't care if we never compete at the highest levels). There's tons and tons of options for the dogs that fall in the middle ground.

Well then I am misunderstanding the thread I guess.
I was stating what I felt to be a good breeder and apparently I am wrong.
I see it from the other end. Way too many dogs in rescue. Of every breed.
Thus it appears that bad breeders outweigh good ones.

And I'll get off "my high horse" and just leave the discussion since I stated my opinion already
Have fun, y'all.

while i know that this happens, i don't think it's really that common. i know there are people out there playing flyball who see dogs as sporting equipment and not as family members, but they are by far the minority.

and we don't all need sub-4 dogs to be happy. my team usually runs regular four, sometimes regular three. i don't think any of our height dogs run under 6 seconds with any regularity, and while we'd all be absolutely thrilled to have a faster height dog, nobody would ever EVER consider dumping their dogs for not being fast enough.

I guess I just don't see what the point you were making about breeding for sports or work and then dogs ending up in shelters is... Can you elaborate?

If a breeder breeds dogs of any type (working, pet, low drive, high drive, etc) and stands by them, places them in appropriate homes that will enjoy them, and takes them back if it doesn't work out then what is the problem?

Actually no, they bred fast dogs to fast dogs and ended up where they are. In the beginning no one knew what a fast dog looked like, until there were fast dogs breeding true. I rescue too, though most are not being bred for looks. Those in rescue are byb and milled dogs IME.


No one said breeders are all doing this. However to be a club affiliated breeder you must sign the breeder's code of ethics. And all heck rains down on people who are found to be not taking dogs back. Once again no one would say that byb or millers are good breeder.

My point was that there are MANY well bred JRTs happily living as pets. Yes you need the right home, but there are a surprising amount of 'right' homes.

Have you met border jacks? I have. Remember I do play in dog sports . And some of the most insanely driven dogs are couch potatoes at home. Dekka is insanely drivey and fast. And sleeps most of the day and is a very quiet house pet. Reading Shaping for Success by Susan Garrett.... its all about this over the top dog with ridiculous amounts of drive. I mean even by sport standards this dog is insane. Yet she comments about how he is the most unobtrusive of pets. One of my fave agility dogs is crazy drivey. He is a mix of all sorts of things.. all sorts of top agility dogs went into his mix.. I have asked what he is like to live with, the answer? Very easy. AND these dogs are 'easy' even in the off season so its not the training and the trialing that make them easy.

One of the dog's I see at lots of trials is a borderjack. I would totally steal her. She has the size of the JRT but the bidability of the BC. She is drivey but not stupidly so.

What happens to these dogs who don't make it as a top sport prospects? The reasons they aren't good sport prospects are likely going to make them into great pets. They will be bred for biddability, trainability, health and athleticism. If they can't get 'turned on' for sport then they are going to be quite laid back. Sounds like an ideal pet to me

Most sport people are just doing what they love with their beloved pet. Yes people who get a little more serious pick a dog who will do well, but that doesn't mean they want to win at all costs. I personally can't think of anyone that I know (vs heard of) that is like that. If the dog can't perform, or doesn't perform well they don't dump it. They try something else or get a second dog.

No, I can't say I've dealt much in the rescue department other than placing a lab I found on the side of the road in a home in Colorado via transport and a rescue staff.

I have a question, how do you know all these OCD dogs are sport drop outs that weren't enough to 'win'? Could they just be dogs that weren't trained properly or in the right hands?

Not always.
I've seen countless litters of working bred dogs who never produce anything I'd call pet quality. Puppy after puppy after puppy is hard core working quality.

Breeding a dog for obedience/rally/conformation, IMO, is akin to breeding for pet quality. You prove good structure and trainability in those venues. Obedience titles don't help me if I'm looking for a herding dog to work on my farm, but if I want a house pet, they mean a lot.

But those "standards" don't have to be titles. In a working dog, you really can't judge him based on five minutes in the ring. Heck, even Morgan, my least trainable dog, managed to get an obedience title. She even got two blue ribbons in the process.

There are many ways to assess breeding quality outside of the ring.

Form follows function. It's not that the leg length allowed then to perform their intended work. It's that selecting the dogs that excelled in that work created a certain length of leg or snout or ear set or eye shape.

Depends on how you're defining "aggression".

:rofl1:
But you do know that corgis are the only breed pigs will listen to.

As someone who has gotten dogs to foster when shelters call the JRTRO.. Some dogs are insane in the shelter. One dog, attacked the bars to the point of breaking teeth!!! when people walked by. Out of the shelter he was the quietest most reliable happy little shorty jack you ever met. OCD != insane. Many many drivey dogs are not OCD, and not all OCD dogs are drivey.

The JRTRO often takes dogs from shelters because they don't do well there.. they stress up and up and up. These dogs end up being great pet dogs, far less drivey than working dogs.

Its not about winning. Winning is more about training for the most part. You could give me the worlds best BC and give Susan Garrett a mediocre one, and her dog would win more often than mine. And one thing I love about dog sports, in almost all cases you don't need to win to get titles.

Its about getting the dog that will work best with you. We own a rescue BC. The reason we have him is because woman who runs the rescue knows us and we know her. She matched us up. Random dogs on petfiner hold no interest for me at all. Its too big a risk. I want a dog who is going to be happy with me. I do realize I am pickier than the average dog owner, but most sport people are.

Laurelin, I know I quoted you but my questions about Pugs, Pekingnese, Maltese, etc. weren't directed towards you per say, just a general question that was hanging in my head while I read the thread. I know you already said you were talking Papillons. I also strongly prefer the Pugs active in agility, over the ones I see being bred as pet quality, or even show quality. I love MandyPug's girl and Kuma from the other forum. I was just wondering what owners of those breeds had to say about the types of breeders they advice everyone to avoid (going beyond personal preference).

Really great posts on everyone's part, but this is really what I was trying to get to. :hail:

To put it simply... I tell everyone to avoid breeders that don't do health testing ESPECIALLY SINCE PDE CAN NOW BE TESTED FOR.

If they don't test, they are not a reputable breeder. PDE is a 100% fatal disease that only effects Pugs so now that we can identify carriers we can hopefully breed away from this awful thing. So i require that all breeding dogs be tested now for PDE, patellas and eyes are very important too but PDE is now THE MOST important thing in my books.