Exactly!!!!
I don't want a dog who obeys me out of fear, in a state of shut down... fearful, shut down dogs are the MOST frustrating to work with, in my experience. I work with thousands of dogs. 99% of them are either not trained at all or trained using compulsive, correction based methods. I greatly prefer untrained dogs to dogs who are just waiting for you to collar pop them, scruff them, alpha roll them or worse. Untrained dogs are at least eager and excited to learn, not slinky and shameful. I can't express how angry I get thinking of the treatment some of the sweetest dogs I know go through at home, and how the fact that they are abused by their owners and trainers makes it dangerous for me to handle them, touch their neck, walk toward them, etc. I would much rather have an unruly, untrained dog than one who fears human hands and who has been corrected for giving warnings, therefor no longer gives any warnings.
I think it's hilarious that Billy claims that "treat tossing morons" are to blame for aggressive dogs. Thank you for that sweet profile post, BillG!
If anything, the majority of dogs are trained using your methods, if not the amazingly dangerous methods of Cesar Millan, probably your hero. While I'm sure you make wayyyy more money than you deserve, for hurting dogs, there are plenty of educated authors and behaviorists with PhD's who are known around the world for helping to change the old school, brutal methods of dog training and who are making much more money than you. Karen Pryor is not poor. Nor is Jean Donaldson, Emma Parsons, Leslie McDevitt, etc. Those people are part of a change - part of real progress and scientific breakthroughs - they are not using brute force or training in a state of domination and anger. The question is, WHY do you use force in dog training when you don't need to? Is it because you're lacking elsewhere and it makes you feel like a man? Are marine animal trainers "treat tossing morons" because they clicker train Orcas?
I love that this thread has turned into a showcase of amazing, positively trained, HAPPY dogs and owners. Emphasis on HAPPY! Why even have a dog if they don't make you happy and vice versa?
The picture on the right of the page of the 4 Paws University website is of Fozzie doing a perfect heel at attention, focused on me, with his tail wagging wildly, around 20+ other dogs... and I had forgotten my treat bag. There is no bribery in this. That is a dog who loves me and does what I ask not because I'm shoving hotdogs down his throat NOR because I'm cutting off his air supply. He does it because I have conditioned him properly, to the point that he truly feels that being by me in and of itself is rewarding. He will also do this for a mile on a walk, off-leash, passing other dogs and people and bikes. I have to encourage him to go ahead to get him unglued from my side. I have never corrected this dog in his life, and he is trustworthy around anyone, anything, and any distraction. But most importantly, he trusts ME, and always looks to me for guidance. He has never looked at me with fear in his eyes and I never want him to.
It's only a matter of time before ALL of these PR only trained dogs break their 5 minute down stay and run into the road and the halloween fair going on around them, savagely attacking bystanders for their treats! Gonzo is the skunk.
Here, Gonzo is seen ripping my niece's face off, because I used desensitizing and conditioning with treats/praise/play to end his fear aggression towards children (which was already full blown when I adopted him). I should've "rehabilitated" him by correcting his every growl, thereby suppressing his warnings rather than changing how he feels about children.
Here is Pig the Pit Bull, my co-worker's dog, and Fozzie Bear. Pig is trained using NO treats and little praise. Just corrections. Such a sweet dog, and so eager to please when I use treats with him. You can see that when he is told to stay and pose, he cowers, looks away, ears back, trembling, checks out. He shuts down. And clearly cannot by trusted with the leash dropped. Fozzie, trained using NO corrections, is excited and focused and doesn't move an inch. And I had zero treats on me. We took several pictures of both of them staying and all of them turned out like this, regardless of who was taking the pictures and what was going on around us. It paints a very clear picture of correction training vs reward training.
I don't want a dog who obeys me out of fear, in a state of shut down... fearful, shut down dogs are the MOST frustrating to work with, in my experience. I work with thousands of dogs. 99% of them are either not trained at all or trained using compulsive, correction based methods. I greatly prefer untrained dogs to dogs who are just waiting for you to collar pop them, scruff them, alpha roll them or worse. Untrained dogs are at least eager and excited to learn, not slinky and shameful. I can't express how angry I get thinking of the treatment some of the sweetest dogs I know go through at home, and how the fact that they are abused by their owners and trainers makes it dangerous for me to handle them, touch their neck, walk toward them, etc. I would much rather have an unruly, untrained dog than one who fears human hands and who has been corrected for giving warnings, therefor no longer gives any warnings.
I think it's hilarious that Billy claims that "treat tossing morons" are to blame for aggressive dogs. Thank you for that sweet profile post, BillG!
If anything, the majority of dogs are trained using your methods, if not the amazingly dangerous methods of Cesar Millan, probably your hero. While I'm sure you make wayyyy more money than you deserve, for hurting dogs, there are plenty of educated authors and behaviorists with PhD's who are known around the world for helping to change the old school, brutal methods of dog training and who are making much more money than you. Karen Pryor is not poor. Nor is Jean Donaldson, Emma Parsons, Leslie McDevitt, etc. Those people are part of a change - part of real progress and scientific breakthroughs - they are not using brute force or training in a state of domination and anger. The question is, WHY do you use force in dog training when you don't need to? Is it because you're lacking elsewhere and it makes you feel like a man? Are marine animal trainers "treat tossing morons" because they clicker train Orcas?I love that this thread has turned into a showcase of amazing, positively trained, HAPPY dogs and owners. Emphasis on HAPPY! Why even have a dog if they don't make you happy and vice versa?
The picture on the right of the page of the 4 Paws University website is of Fozzie doing a perfect heel at attention, focused on me, with his tail wagging wildly, around 20+ other dogs... and I had forgotten my treat bag. There is no bribery in this. That is a dog who loves me and does what I ask not because I'm shoving hotdogs down his throat NOR because I'm cutting off his air supply. He does it because I have conditioned him properly, to the point that he truly feels that being by me in and of itself is rewarding. He will also do this for a mile on a walk, off-leash, passing other dogs and people and bikes. I have to encourage him to go ahead to get him unglued from my side. I have never corrected this dog in his life, and he is trustworthy around anyone, anything, and any distraction. But most importantly, he trusts ME, and always looks to me for guidance. He has never looked at me with fear in his eyes and I never want him to.
It's only a matter of time before ALL of these PR only trained dogs break their 5 minute down stay and run into the road and the halloween fair going on around them, savagely attacking bystanders for their treats!
Gonzo is the skunk.
Here, Gonzo is seen ripping my niece's face off, because I used desensitizing and conditioning with treats/praise/play to end his fear aggression towards children (which was already full blown when I adopted him). I should've "rehabilitated" him by correcting his every growl, thereby suppressing his warnings rather than changing how he feels about children.
Here is Pig the Pit Bull, my co-worker's dog, and Fozzie Bear. Pig is trained using NO treats and little praise. Just corrections. Such a sweet dog, and so eager to please when I use treats with him. You can see that when he is told to stay and pose, he cowers, looks away, ears back, trembling, checks out. He shuts down. And clearly cannot by trusted with the leash dropped. Fozzie, trained using NO corrections, is excited and focused and doesn't move an inch. And I had zero treats on me. We took several pictures of both of them staying and all of them turned out like this, regardless of who was taking the pictures and what was going on around us. It paints a very clear picture of correction training vs reward training.
