Dog Training Professional

Dekka, you mean things like this?


My HRD K-9, Tempie. A rescue, who came to me terrified of people. And look at her, hamming it up for crowds to earn money for our SAR team. How was she trained? I "tortured" her with food and marker training.


And then, her very first time working water, she alerted on a finger at the bottom of a pond.


And yesterday, despite recently being attacked by four men that broke into my house, she was calm and confident enough to be out on this busy street, once again running through trick after trick. We earned over $700.00 in the first hour and a half.

YouTube - A doggy Christmas surprise - Karácsonyi kutyás meglepetés
These dogs are all clicker trained. Looks like several intact males in that group too...

@MHMR those are some awesome pics. Way to go! I bet the OP's dogs aren't trained in search and rescue. Thats really cool about marking a finger (whose finger by the way? ) at the bottom of the pond?

Bingo!!

(though our BC will work simply to be given directions/praise. I mean he will work to be given the cue to sit. Its down right freaky after working with JRTs and whippets lol)

AMEN!!! Which leads to another, and much bigger, difference down the road. A dog who listens and obeys because s/he loves and trusts the handler and is much more responsive. By that I mean faster and more complete attention as a result of anticipating a happy response by their partner.

The BillG fella has a facebook where he posts pics of people who have been attacked by dogs and tries to claim he has seen an increase in incidents since the "foodies" and "clicker extremists" became popular. Two points:

1. Unfortunately "foodies" and "clicker extremists" are still all too rare. Yank and crank and shock and awe are still the predominant training methods in the US.

2. I could look at the rise in dog bites and put the blame on CM and the popularity of his shows (and the number of "trainers" who engage in those tactics) I wonder how many of those bites are from dogs who have been "alpha rolled" or growled at to "show them who is boss" or flooded to deal with a fear based issue?

Of course neither BillG nor I would have the clear data to demonstrate definitive cause and effect (not that he, the so called "certified behaviorist" despite NOT being on the list of certified applied animal behaviorists in the US Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists — Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior relies on scientific data to form his opinions or his methods...but I digress) however I suspect I am closer to the truth than he is. Add the "trendiness" of having dominant breeds (especially among "tough guys" with little to no experience with dogs!) into the mix and voila!

LOve, love, LOVE all the pics of cookie tortured dogs

You also have to factor in that there simply are more dogs and people with dogs. Which also means more badly bred, ill tempered dogs being produced.

A little hesitant to jump in here because Morgan is the only dog that's been trained without any P+, and she doesn't do anything, but Nyx has been trained 95% R+, and one behavior that I'm very proud of and that was trained with only positive motivation is that she can now almost fall asleep while I throw a ball across the room. I mean she rolls over on her side, her eyes are barely open, and she's completely relaxed. And this is a dog who is genetically missing an off switch and has through the roof drives and very much lacks something in the self control department. I didn't just train a "leave it", I actually built an off switch from scratch.

Sadly, when it comes to basics, to the untrained eye most of the crank 'n yank, shock and fear methods do work just as well as clickers and rewards. Most people are just looking for a dog who won't jump on great aunt Ethel and not yank their arm out of socket on a walk. So yeah, you can achieve that with a few well timed prong corrections, shock collar zaps, what have you. And depending on the dog, you'll have minimal fall-out, certainly nothing your Joe-Blow dog owner is going to notice.

There are two main issues I have with using fear and pain (however slight, justified, righteous) to train. One is practical, one philosophical.

On the practical front, there are those dogs who respond to aggression (doesn't matter how you meant it, only how the dog perceived it) with aggression. When a human aggresses, we get counseling. When a dog aggresses they get blue juice.

On the philosophical front, we have to look at what we really want from our relationship with our dogs. I was trained in old-school methods, and I'm pretty confident that I could easily shut-down a dog and teach unquestioning obedience. The kind of obedience where a dog holds a down stay with bombs going off and a mack truck speeding towards him. Its really not that hard.
But life lessons have taught me that kind of obedience is not only very "kind", but perhaps not the best use of the wonderful abilities of our canine companions. Trainers of all types of service/working dogs have stories of dogs abilities that go beyond what they were trained to do. Dogs who "disobeyed" only to save the platoon from walking in to a death trap, to find the trapped earthquake survivor, to stop the blind handler from walking across an unsafe bridge. Unquestioning obedience is not all its cracked up to be.

God... I can't believe how ignorant some "trainers" are! Bill G, did you really win $5000 for abusing dogs? It always amazes me that people actually PAY these jerks to choke out their dogs. Shocking.

A negative trainer (I'm sure Bill G knows him, he is in Sac and VERY much more well known than Bill) in the area boards his dogs where I work regularly. He has DVDs, a TV show and tons of clients. He preaches no-treats, the only reward that he gives them is a simple "good dog" and a lack of being choked or yelled at. When he comes in with his 5 dogs, they all cower behind him. They will do a downstay in the lobby together, literally trembling in fear, breaking it here and there and getting choker pops. When ANYONE else handles those dogs... watch out! They are barking, lunging, reacting to everything, redirecting on you, to the point of being uncontrollable to most people. One of the dogs took a few Rallyo classes with me, but stopped because he would go into barking outbursts for 5 minutes straight at the other dogs. D: And this guy is well off! He makes tons of money, for shutting down people's dogs. I absolutely adore his dogs (they're one of my favorite breeds ever, of course) and I spoil them heavily when they're staying with us. Everyone else at work dreads handling them or taking them out, and they stress diarrhea in their rooms many times a day (and fence fight like no other)... but I can get all of them excitedly heeling off leash all the way to the playroom. Using TREATS!

All of the dogs that I know have been his clients since they were puppies are wrecks. One is an adorable Norfolk who will bite your finger off if you touch her in the presence of her Mom. I really don't want to feel so much resentment for this trainer, as I feel that he has a good heart, but he desperately NEEDS to update his tactics. I understand that the average uneducated dog owner wants instant results.... but what good are instant "results" if they can have such horrible side affects? You never see dogs become aggressive or fearful because they were given too many treats. That stems from trauma, corrections, and supression.

An interesting observation I made today. My DS, who is actually Abby's main person and is training her, was walking her with his best friend who has a Brittany and has been training with one of those "we come to your home and guarantee results" type trainers (I know, but the Mom isn't open to sending him to training with us, what can ya do?) anyway... Abby walks at a proper heel position with her head up and looking at my DS's face tail wagging and happy. The poor Brittany lags a wee bit and then rushes to catch up but never ever forges, however she is never at heel properly and she is never looking at her boy's face and her little nub tail is tucked down You can just see that she has been aggressively "corrected" for forging and she is afraid to get ahead of her handler A walk for her is no fun anymore.

BTW, Abby learned a nice broad arm/hand signal for retrieve today. She FLIES to get that ball and bring it back. She does have one naughty trick though She bounces the ball off the ground at her person's feet sometimes and then grabs it back up before anyone else can get it. You can almost see her thinking "PSYCH!" when she does it. We're working on it!

How is it that I have never, ever shouted, collar popped or corrected any of my dogs and they listen to me? Anyone who has Paps knows that they are not right up there on impulse control. I was in the garage the other day when Paul opened it. It runs out onto the road and he was coming in from outside.

Riley and Travis rushed in and I turned to them and said stay. My 10 month old dropped to her bum with her tail wiggling the whole time and didn't move until Paul came up to her and I gave her a break word. I have NEVER tried to train stay with her. Not once. How come she knew to do it? Because she trusts me and it is something I have just used from day one. She knows that if she does what she is told she gets rewarded.

They are also trained to not exit the car until I have my hand on their leashes. Paul keeps forgetting and calls them to just jump out on their own. They won't. They just stand there and stare at him.

These are dogs that have always been trained on +R. Educate yourself, it is the better way to go.

I love all the pictures of the happy, well-trained dogs! Like someone said pages back (and I've heard many people say here before), of course you can also get an obedient dog by making their blood vessels burst in their eyes - but why in the world would you want to? I have a dog because I *like* her; I have no desire to hurt her. As I've said before, if I didn't love her so much, I'd offer her as a challenge to trainers who still use old school methods. I've never seen a dog who can shut down as hard and fast as Meg; extra points off if you make her pee herself.

For the trained dogs photo album:

Meg's usual response while hiking off lead (with a hound!) in the woods when she hears "Meg, come!". Usually she is well out of sight, so she certainly doesn't see cookies if I have them.


Meg holding a down stay while I backed far enough away to take a picture with my zoom lens - in the small area between the lure coursing and dock diving at the very crowded 2010 Cynosport World Games


Meg with her USDAA Performance Dog II title ribbon - we are just one Q away from PDIII! Not bad for a scared little rescue hound who used to hide under the table in agility class!


Like a certain website this thread brought me too, my dog can also balance on silly things. She probably has it easier though, since she isn't trying to hold her balance while wearing a big shock collar.


Perhaps my proudest, as the owner of a dog who would not *look* at a toy as an adult rescue. Clicker trained right from the first step of "touch this ball with your nose" to retrieving happily in about 3 sessions.

Lyric, being recalled after beginning to chase 4 deer...returning to "trail."



Lyric in a down stay in an unfamiliar place



Sit-stay. I'm further away than this looks. In fact, this is nothing. He would stay in place, in my pasture, for instance, while I walked 400 feet up my driveway and behind my garage.



All dogs under total control, off leash, any time:



Not one of these dogs was trained with punishment of any kind. It was all positive reinforcement, sometimes with a clicker, sometimes not. Treats, toys, fun. Recalling and then getting turned loose to do what they like was a valuable tool too. And no, I don't necessarily have any treats on me in these pictures. Once they're reliable, they get treats sometimes, but not every time. I don't have access to all my pictures since I'm not on my computer...just the ones here in my gallery.

I think the Golden Rule applies. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be punished for not getting onto something? Would you like your neck yanked because something in the environment was just too enticing and your instincts told you to check it out rather than to go to someone you don't particularily trust since that person has, in the past caused discomfort and pain, harsh words? Not me. And I don't expect an animal to be anything different than the animal he is. Ignorant people, such as the troll on this thread clearly don't understand animals or their behavior. They're unempathetic and try to make dogs something they're not.

Okay, I'll bite. I adopted Lucy at 3ish years old. She had zero impulse control. We brought her home in the pouring rain to our little apartment, and couldn't get her to sit still long enough to towel her off that first day. She ran zoomies 20 hours a day (slept the other 4). When she escaped out the back door (she figured out how to open a door knob...), it took hours to catch her.

Now, my little girl is competing (successfully!) in agility. This dog had zero recall, zero training, and zero ability to stop wiggling when we brought her home. Now, I can put her in a stay on the start line with a zillion yappy dogs on the other side of the ring, and she stays.

I can't imagine training agility with any kind of punishment. You need the dog to be willing to try new things, think on its own, and have drive. Zapping her would have stopped all that.

YouTube - Third run

This was her first ever trial--the run's not perfect, but that stay was gorgeous. And during an agility run, you aren't allowed to have treats on your body--so she certainly wasn't being lured through things.

PS - This is what treats do to your dog. Look how "vicious" she is.

Nice Cali...I got a kick out of Lucy wanting to go through the tunnel instead of where she was suppose to go. That was always Lyric's favorite thing....He'd go through the tunnel sometimes, then turn and go back through it again and again if I weren't very on top of it. LOL. Cute video.

Hah, yeah--she definitely has favorites! We practiced a lot of obstacle discrimination after that lovely performance.

I just can't imagine using shock collars or punishment to train something like that. I need my dog to WANT to do something, instead of being afraid of not doing it. I have no idea how would even work. I'd have a very timid dog instead of one with boundless drive.

I agree. Lyric was a very senstitive dog...typical in Dobermans. A heavy hand in any way, shape or form would have shut him down. I like my dogs to do everything with great gusto. And he did. He grabbed life by both paws and everything he did was with boundless joy. He was never apprehensive to try anything because he knew if he didn't do it right, nothing bad would happen. And he had a lot of advanced obedience training. Agility would NEVER be a success with the use of corrections. That slows a dog down and discourages them. I don't know why people think you have to use corrections to have a well trained dog. There's so much evidence to the contrary. They just close their eyes. Too bad...

What a gorgeous picture, and lovely dog. Do you know what breed(s) she is?

Maybe I'm just becoming more aware, but there seems to be a newish trend with a certain type of training (I won't even call it "old school" because I think even Koehler himself would find these people fools). All of these "trainers" advertise with picture after picture of some sort of stay - preferably in an awkward position. And in picture after picture you see tight bodies, ears back, worried lips, and often nervous looking panting. I just love this picture of Meg because not only does she not look awkward despite her precarious perch, she is clearly quite full of herself. What a neat little dog!!

Not sure if I can share the link, but there is a website with a dog perching just like Meg, only the difference in expression is night and day. Personally I'd be embarrassed to show one of my dogs looking that miserable, let alone use it as advertising...

Thanks for the compliments . Meg is a Mountain Cur. She is not one to do *anything* unless she is fully comfortable due to some serious confidence issues. Thanks to all our work in agility, things have transferred very well into the 'real world' and she now seems to get a kick out of stuff like this.

Exactly!!!!
I don't want a dog who obeys me out of fear, in a state of shut down... fearful, shut down dogs are the MOST frustrating to work with, in my experience. I work with thousands of dogs. 99% of them are either not trained at all or trained using compulsive, correction based methods. I greatly prefer untrained dogs to dogs who are just waiting for you to collar pop them, scruff them, alpha roll them or worse. Untrained dogs are at least eager and excited to learn, not slinky and shameful. I can't express how angry I get thinking of the treatment some of the sweetest dogs I know go through at home, and how the fact that they are abused by their owners and trainers makes it dangerous for me to handle them, touch their neck, walk toward them, etc. I would much rather have an unruly, untrained dog than one who fears human hands and who has been corrected for giving warnings, therefor no longer gives any warnings.

I think it's hilarious that Billy claims that "treat tossing morons" are to blame for aggressive dogs. Thank you for that sweet profile post, BillG! If anything, the majority of dogs are trained using your methods, if not the amazingly dangerous methods of Cesar Millan, probably your hero. While I'm sure you make wayyyy more money than you deserve, for hurting dogs, there are plenty of educated authors and behaviorists with PhD's who are known around the world for helping to change the old school, brutal methods of dog training and who are making much more money than you. Karen Pryor is not poor. Nor is Jean Donaldson, Emma Parsons, Leslie McDevitt, etc. Those people are part of a change - part of real progress and scientific breakthroughs - they are not using brute force or training in a state of domination and anger. The question is, WHY do you use force in dog training when you don't need to? Is it because you're lacking elsewhere and it makes you feel like a man? Are marine animal trainers "treat tossing morons" because they clicker train Orcas?

I love that this thread has turned into a showcase of amazing, positively trained, HAPPY dogs and owners. Emphasis on HAPPY! Why even have a dog if they don't make you happy and vice versa?

The picture on the right of the page of the 4 Paws University website is of Fozzie doing a perfect heel at attention, focused on me, with his tail wagging wildly, around 20+ other dogs... and I had forgotten my treat bag. There is no bribery in this. That is a dog who loves me and does what I ask not because I'm shoving hotdogs down his throat NOR because I'm cutting off his air supply. He does it because I have conditioned him properly, to the point that he truly feels that being by me in and of itself is rewarding. He will also do this for a mile on a walk, off-leash, passing other dogs and people and bikes. I have to encourage him to go ahead to get him unglued from my side. I have never corrected this dog in his life, and he is trustworthy around anyone, anything, and any distraction. But most importantly, he trusts ME, and always looks to me for guidance. He has never looked at me with fear in his eyes and I never want him to.


It's only a matter of time before ALL of these PR only trained dogs break their 5 minute down stay and run into the road and the halloween fair going on around them, savagely attacking bystanders for their treats! Gonzo is the skunk.


Here, Gonzo is seen ripping my niece's face off, because I used desensitizing and conditioning with treats/praise/play to end his fear aggression towards children (which was already full blown when I adopted him). I should've "rehabilitated" him by correcting his every growl, thereby suppressing his warnings rather than changing how he feels about children.


Here is Pig the Pit Bull, my co-worker's dog, and Fozzie Bear. Pig is trained using NO treats and little praise. Just corrections. Such a sweet dog, and so eager to please when I use treats with him. You can see that when he is told to stay and pose, he cowers, looks away, ears back, trembling, checks out. He shuts down. And clearly cannot by trusted with the leash dropped. Fozzie, trained using NO corrections, is excited and focused and doesn't move an inch. And I had zero treats on me. We took several pictures of both of them staying and all of them turned out like this, regardless of who was taking the pictures and what was going on around us. It paints a very clear picture of correction training vs reward training.

Lmao, understatement of the year. Oooh look, shiny!