I Do Not..

My dogs learn a lot from every day speak too. I talk to them all the time and they learn a lot from that, I really believe. The other day I was at a drive through and the girls jumped into the front seat. I just motioned over my shoulder and said 'get in the back'. And they did, completely amazing the girl working at the drive through. That's just one example of some behavior that was never formally trained, it just happened.

But especially if you're into dog sports or other disciplines you'll need to at least somehow sit the dog down for actual training sessions to learn those behaviors.

I don't have the tile down on the floor in my bathroom yet. Tallulah dug/chewed a hole about 5 inches long and 3 inches wide at the widest point in the wood subfloor. There's also a rather impressive hole in the wallboard near the floor on each side of one corner. We seem to be past that, thankfully. There haven't been any more depredations for quite awhile.

She goes ballistic near a crate, though. I borrowed the big one my mom bought for her Rat Terrier awhile back and Tallulah went into meltdown just approaching it. She tore her lips and gums in several places and cut herself above the eye when she went in for her spay. The vet said she cried and screamed the entire time after she started coming out of anesthesia, so he called me to tell me I could get her early because she was so upset.

She just spent too much time locked up before I got her.

As far as the big ones go, I don't have any possessions that mean so much to me that they're worth jeopardizing a pup's development. I can make a big puppy safe in a room, plus it helps when you've got an older dog you can trust to take care of things without murdering the pup

Frodo does that as well. There is a little partition set up (well it's actually part of the back seat, since they are folded down) between the two front seats and Frodo will stand with his front paws on it. All I have to tell him is to back off and he'll put them down and sit there with his head on the partition.

It's more that I tend to chatter away DURING actual training sessions, especially when I am shaping. I want him to be concentrating on what he is doing, not also listening to me blabber away

It is hard!! The clicker doesn't eliminate my chatter, but it does seem to help me get into the mind-set a bit more easily.

I agree that my girl has picked up a lot from everyday talking that has become very informal training sessions without me even being aware.

For example, I just have to say 'go wait' and she will wait at the bottom of the stairs (for the good stuff that does eventually come) but I never actually 'formally' taught her that. The fact that something good happens everytime she goes and waits at the bottom of the stairs is obviously reinforcing, but it's not something I ever clicked and treated for. I am sure I have heaps of other examples too.

It is funny how you do teach things without realising it and later you think, 'Well, that's handy!'

I don't use crates right now. Daisy was crate-trained as a puppy for house training purposes, and so she wouldn't chew up the house while I was gone. Once she matured and was house trained I was able to give the crate back to the person I borrowed it from, and let her have free reign. Benji has never been crated, as far as I know, besides at the groomers, and the vet when he had his neuter and also when he had that growth removed from his ear, and he does fine in those instances. When my sister first brought him home, we lived in the house with the fenced in yard, so he and Daisy just stayed outside while we were gone. At this house, we've never had a problem with Benji chewing on anything he wasn't supposed to. His only issue is the marking, but we're good as long as we keep certain rooms closed off. Daisy will go through the wastebaskets in the TV room and the powder room if there are tissues, or wrappers or paper towels or something with a morsel of food thrown away in them, but picking up a few ripped up paper products isn't a big deal.

I have used clicker training sparingly. I used it on Opie some, and he seemed to like it, he seemed surprised when I started using it, like "oh, training can involve fun??" Daisy learns fine with food and voice markers, so I never really used it for her (although it was really easy to teach her that click = food, haha). Benji was a little scared of the sound at first, but he got over it, and I used the clicker some with him to work on his leash reactivity, and it helped.

i like clicker training a great deal for certain things. it worked absolutely superbly for teaching luce a formal dumbbell retrieve. i used it very heavily for teaching steve an agility 2o/2o contact position. i use it a lot for polishing correct heel position because it is so specific. i use it a lot lot lot for desensitization using the "look at that" game. it's faster, it is processed by the dog's brain more quickly and therefore allows me to be more effective in my training.

i just finished a two day seminar with a trainer who doesn't use clickers. she thinks they're a hassle and one more thing to juggle, but she's very specific and careful with her verbal marker. i personally find it a lot harder to be mindful of what is coming out of my mouth (a specific word said in a specific tone used at the correct specific time) than i do to keep a clicker on a band around my wrist and hit the button as needed.

my dogs of course respond to verbal markers as well, but when i'm trying to be specific about something, i find a clicker to be much easier... more efficient.

Renee - What do you think about a X-Pen for large breed pups?

As long as they have room to walk around and stretch out, it's great. Sooner or later they're probably going to figure out they can knock it right over though, lol.

Ideally, I'd like to have a dutch door in my kitchen so I can leave a pup in there and the big dogs can still go stick their heads over the door and check on it.

No no, he definitely didn't, LOL. There was never any time for him to build the association of a clicker or a click to treats. He simply saw that I had something in my hand and thought it was something to eat - and he DID try to eat it multiple times LMAO. I'd show it to him hoping he'd be like "Oh, that's not a treat, okay." So he'd smell it, look at it, go NOM trying to eat it, realize it wasn't food, spit it back out... I'd pick it back up, same OMG OMG FOOD IN THE HAND OMG reaction... show it to him again, he'd chomp on it, realize nope, still not food, spit it back out... repeat. The clicker itself had nothing to do with it - the shape of my hand did. No different than how people can ACT like they are holding cookie treats in their hand and a dog goes "oh boy oh boy!!" Because the closed fist means that a cookie must be in there!

Auggie went through a very long stage where the mere thought of food being present meant he was over his threshold and training was incredibly difficult. It was really, really annoying. He has gotten a lot better on the whole, but on occasion he still slips over his threshold when food is involved, and it's STILL annoying when it happens, LOL. But at least now it's when there is actually food, not just at the sight of anything in the hand. I can actually carry a handful of whatever from one room to the next and not have my dog flip his (#*@ now, LMAO.
I have actually been working with getting him to be just a driven for a tug toy, but I am simultaneously worried that a) he will never be as nuts about his tug as he is for food and b) he will ultimately develop the "THRESHOLD IS WHERE???" issue with the tug and I'll be right back where we started, LOL. But that's what I get for having a working dog. He is forever a work in progress. =P

That's what I mean though, the issue was never clicker training or the clicker itself. It was Auggie. He already had an issue that made adding the tool into the mix frustrating, and in some ways it was no different than a dog who is sensitive to the sound. I had to approach it differently than sound desensitization, since I had to first get the dog able to work around food under threshold, then work with food in my HAND under threshold, and then making a fist, regardless if I was holding food, a clicker, a handful of trash, nothing at all, WHATEVER... was no longer going to trigger him. At that point I could get the clicker in my hand and we could actually start USING it without having him instantly go stupid. On the whole though, working on his threshold with food had nothing to do with the clicker. That was just a neat little benefit that once I finally got him to not lose it when I made a fist, I could use a clicker!


Oh yeah - I also use "uh-uh" when training and, I admit, I even use "no" sometimes. D= I also use verbal markers with the clicker since we mainly work without the clicker, so add me to the column that does the "YESSSSS!" along with the click, LOL.

Let me introduce you to Nyx...
Clicker + Nyx = a truly exciting 10 minutes.

Bailey was crate trained for his first year (he started with one of those crates that had the divider you could move back as they got bigger, and then I attached an ex pen to the crate). When I put my house on the market, I started leaving him free (as the crate/ex pen combo was quite the eyesore), and he was fine, so we never went back.

I have boarded him since and haven't heard that he has any problems (though in bigger runs, not crates, and it was at his daycare, so he'd run around all day and was probably exhausted anyway). I think about getting a Vari Kennel or bringing his old wire crate back just so he "remembers" the crate, but I rather enjoy having a crate-less house (and I suspect that he enjoys sleeping on the couch when he's home alone). We'll see.

As for training, we've only done the basics thus far, and it's been about 50/50 clicker and non-clicker training. I'm thinking of signing up for some more classes this winter, since he won't get as much exercise on the weekends as he does now, and that'll be clicker based.

Bailey has learned a *lot* from my babbling. It's weird how much they pick up. He's pretty intuitive, too. I would say a good chunk of his training has been accidental. :lol-sign:

Is it really weird? Or maybe WE don't know as much as we like to think we do about how intelligent they really are? Maybe we aren't as superior as we want to believe . . .

Oh, I have no doubt they are a LOT smarter than a lot of people give them credit for, LOL.
Poor Kota once knew exactly what I meant when I said "Kota, come play with your brother. He's bothering me." He slid off the couch like "*sigh* Ooookaaaaay... if I have to..."

Too funny!:rofl1:

Did you ever try the double-handed trick? The doggie zen trick? It's how I taught "leave it." You could hold the clicker in your hand, even a hand that has a mediocre treat in it too or just the smell of one on that hand. And hold a scrump-dilli-ump-toush treat in the other hand, behind your back. Let him sniff, nibble, (but not bite it. lol) paw, nuzzle your semi-closed fist that's holding the clicker. Wait and wait. When he finally realizes nothing he does is going to get him whatever it is he thinks you have in your hand, when he finally has an extinction bursts and gives up, he'll back his head away just for a sec. Then you swing your hand around from behind your back and stuff a scrumptous treat into his mouth. You could even click the second he backs off, (have your thumb ready to press the clicker even if it is in your fist) then give the treat from your other hand, from the far opposite direction from the hand with the clicker. Then try different positions from him, locations, distances etc....little by little. Just a thought...

My dogs get excited too when I get out the clicker. But they simmer down as I wait them out.... because I will ignore them if they act pushy. If one would ever try to get the clicker or anything out of my hand, I would do everything in my power to keep them from getting too close to it and succeeding.

Heck, they get excited when I get out the Dremel and start prancing around, clicking their nails on the floor. Dremel = treats and lots of attention. It's like a long-duration conditioned reinforcer. LOL.

LOL!


What do you say or do when Nyx gets something right and you want to tell him how great that was? Do you give a treat when you're first teaching something? Do you give a treat right after you say whatever it is you say when he gets it right? LOL.

I don't think puppies need to stretch their legs and move around all the time. But of course, they need plenty of that at other times. I sure don't think they should be in a crate for long, long hours on end. Absolutely not. But they take naps and sleep all curled up sometimes. Their bones are still soft and flexible for a time. So, all things in moderation, imo. I think an ex-pen would be great too. And some dogs do fine in a puppy proof room. But then there are those that eat sheet rock, tear up vinyl flooring, bite the door jams, scratch the door, mess with electrical outlets and any number of dangerous, destructive behaviors. Those puppies need to be confined for their own safety and for their owner's. If their house gets destroyed, they will lose money. If they lose money, they may not be able to buy groceries. Their very health depends on it.

Oh, I tried clicker training with her. I tried verbal markers too.

With Nyx, she doesn't make the connection of behavior earns a click followed by a reward. She got that the clicker gave her treats and decided to attack - quite violently - the clicker in hopes of getting it to give up it's goodies. When I quit with markers and just silently gave a reward for the behavior, she suddenly started learning.

I also can't talk her through anything to try to help the way I can with the other dogs.

Verbal praise at any time during a session pretty much ends her focus. She needs me to just STFU and let her work.

:rofl1:

Hmmm. Interesting. I am not very talkative when I am seriously working on some new behavior that's a little more complicated for them. I pretty much either use a clicker or quiet marker word and give a treat or whatever....if it's something that takes a lot of concentration. But I'm lucky in that my dogs don't explode when they get praise or anything. If they did, I'd really let 'em have it. (I'd make life very unpleasant for them. LOL) As in.....no more treats, no Mrs. Nice guy, no nothin'.... No, seriously, my dogs can get silly and unfocused too if I make a big fuss, but then they settle back down...that is, if they want to keep training and getting rewards. If they're tired of it, we just quit for the time being. This is when I'm working on something. That is less frequent these days.

I'm not a very serious trainer of my own dogs right now. In fact, lately, I hardly train them new things at all...just brush-up on what they already have learned if it starts to regress a bit... and sometimes a little trick or something new. They're mostly "just" pets. And that is what they do best. I haven't done any "serious" (I'm never very serious. lol) training since Lyric. Oh, and a little with Toker when she was with me or when we visit. I like to keep her good on he loose leash walking and her recall, manners etc. She can get a little overly-exuberant sometimes.

It's not that she explodes. It's more something like information overload. I've seen it in a handful of very high drive dogs. I don't know if it's related to the drive buttons. I do know that when they're working and their handler isn't getting in their way, they're seriously impressive. They key part being their handler not getting in the way, which can be a difficult thing sometimes with the hair trigger they have.

With Nyx, it's a very fine balancing act between handling and staying out of her way so she can do what she needs to do.

I don't know about weird. I just think it is something we don't understand.

Dogs are dogs, I love them for being dogs and sometimes they astonish me based on what I already know (or think I know) about dogs.