Resource Guarding with puppies.

I read this thread a little bit ago, was pretty appalled..........erm, no, appalled isn't quite the right word. I was down right OUTRAGED at his behavior towards Becca. I had to step off and have time to think it over.

I have since calmed down, and honestly at this moment, I CAN see the comic value in his posts. We all know he goes on and on about the 'perfect way' to feed all dogs.........yet have any of you seen him post one picture of what the effects of that 'perfect diet' yields? One photo of his dogs with wonderful coats, muscle tone, and in top physical shape from this perfect way to feed? He spouts a lot, but he has never backed it up.

I'd wager it's about the same situation with his training advice.

He lets his alligator mouth write checks his mickey mouse ass can't cash :rofl1: I find that incredibly funny!

We had a discussion just a little while ago about people who own pit bulls but simply will not embrace the history and background of the breed. Many pit bulls are dog aggressive. Good owners accept this as part of the breed and are prepared to deal with it.

Which is exactly what Becca is trying to do. She's asking, "Should I be concerned about this? How might I deal with it to prevent future problems?" Isn't this how an intelligent, responsible owner ought to behave?

I have to wonder how an alligator appropriate diet affects a mickey mouse intestinal tract . . .

I've dealt with resource guarding. I've dealt with DA. I've allowed dogs to correct each other, as long as I trust them to not injure each other or fight.

I have no advice here, because I've dealt with this in corgis, GSDs, and malis. I haven't dealt with it in pit bulls and I don't know what's best in a breed with their potential for hard-wired DA.

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:
Incidently, some of the worst resource guarding I've seen was from a golden retriever.

15 years of experience in animal training? I actually find that doubtful. In 15 years you MUST be better at communicating with other animal people than this.

I must say, one of the best pieces of advice on this thread came from someone who's not much more than 15 years old:

As for my advice, OP, I'd be extra cautious while Luke is still sick. I've seen dogs without even symptoms of kennel cough (coughing, runny nose, etc.) act VERY differently than they do when they're healthy. It might be a good idea to do extra management while he's getting over his illness, then relax the management just a bit when he feels better and start working on the issue head-on.

I have no advice to give you other than some encouragement. If anyone can make it work, Becca, it is you.

I second this. I actually teared up a little when I read his post "attacking" you, and your response -- so I truly, truly hope that you can just take his advice for {what we ALL know it} is, and laugh it off.

Wow, RFD... I am usually understanding of your posts, but you really crossed a line there. I don't know if you fully know or understand Becca and her experience with dogs, but you have absolutely no business judging her ability to own dogs of this breed. How many Pitties have you had the pleasure of owning, oh all knowing one? Your experience with DA? Real DA, not just reactivity or poor manners?

I have to disagree with RFD's advice of letting dogs do what they please. IMO, no humans don't necessarily speak dog or vice versa, but that doesn't mean you just give them free reign. These dogs are puppies... rescue puppies... of unknown breeding/upbringing... and whose personalities are still developing. Establishing good boundaries and making sure that neither puppy has a need to get stressed or protective is super important! Fozzie was naturally super guardy and protective when I adopted him as a puppy. Like I've never seen before. I knew that Gonzo could be easily picked on in that regard, and I knew I didn't want them to resent each other or get stressed with chews or food. So, instead of just letting them create their own "pecking order", I made it clear that I provide their food and that what I give them is theirs... they don't need to try to steal the other's food, and they don't need to worry about their's being stolen. When I fed them, I started with their bowls on opposite sides of the room and stood in the middle. Over time, the bowls got closer. Same as when I fed them raw in the yard. Or when I gave them chewies. If they tried to steal the other's chewy, I was there to bodyblock them and redirect them to their own. I fed them treats and food by hand within inches of each other. I didn't just keep them seperate, and I made it clear that neither of them messes with another dog's food. Now, they can eat out of the same bowl and if I give them each a bully stick, they will eat only their own bully stick even if the other leaves theirs alone. It just becomes the only way they know, and it's stress free! Teaching a solid "leave it" and recall helps everything a lot. My dogs won't even touch the chewies or food laying around at friend's houses; they just learn that if it isn't handed to them, it isn't theirs, don't worry about it.

Becca... NO ONE is a better Pittie owner than you! NO ONE is more understanding or aware or responsible than you or loves this breed more than you, and those puppies are beyond lucky to have found you.

and keep in mind, too, becca that what you're seeing is, first and foremost, communication.

i do "allow" my dogs to guard stuff from one another as long as it doesn't go further than growling. the dynamics between my dogs and me are such that i'm comfortable with that. steve is very vocal and growls a lot at the other dogs when he has stuff. they are pretty good about being respectful of him, and he of them when they have stuff and warn him off. i don't ever leave them alone, and i know them well enough by now to be able to tell when there may be bigger trouble brewing.

you're observant and smart, and i have no doubt you'll be fine.

Okay, I have about three things that mostly have already been said, but I'm going to say them again, because they're all true and I'm in a pissy mood to begin with and I'm going to confront someone who deserves it instead of someone who accidentally looks at me the wrong way.

1. Don't friggin talk to the Becca like that. Don't talk to anyone on this forum on like that, especially if you have no idea what you're talking about. You probably shouldn't talk to people like that in real life (which I doubt you do), or you're going to get socked in the face eventually.

2. Where in the hell, in any post, on any website, anywhere in the history of the world would you get the impression Becca is "afraid pit bulls?" Oh, I see, you're confusing loving and respecting and most important of all, knowing and understanding the breed and not being a moron who causes problems for pit bulls and the people who love them, with being afraid of them.

On what FRIGGIN planet do you think you have a right to tell a woman you don't know a single thing about she couldn't control her past dog? Becca controlled and loved and trained Ella very, very, very well, better than probably 95% of the average popular and about 50% of chazzers ever could or would. Most families would give Ella up, or even put her down, for her D/A. At the very least, keep her locked up in the house. Becca spent a ton of time, money, and energy training Ella to behave in public when she saw other dogs and made a ton of progress on her.

Some people don't pretend to know everything about everything. And usually, those people are much more knowledgeable than the hardheaded people who go around boasting about their experience and how much they know, because they have this amazing ability to listen and learn from other people.


2. You say you have 15 years experience training dogs...WHERE? Obviously not very many of them were pit bulls or any kind of terriers. Unless you work at a pet store or give petco puppy kindergarten, you should know that about 50% of pit bulls are "over-the-top-dog-aggressive" and pit bulls, particularly YOUNG pit bulls, can go from 1-100 in under 10 seconds.

It's people like you who want to pretend pit bulls are friggin beagles or great danes or something who cause BSL, because you're the people who bring your 2 year old pittie to a dog park and la la la it's playing with a yorkie or ANY other dog, and suddenly that dog hits a high enough pitch or they move at just the right speed and the pitties brain clicks to "PREY. MUST KILL." and no more yorkie. And not only is there no more yorkie, there's a whole park full of people who know nothing about pit bulls and saw a horrible example of pit bull ownership and ALL vote for BSL and are terrified of pit bulls.

Have you ever worked with a high-drive hunting breed? I don't mean labs. I mean a dog that was bred to go in and kill another animal, sometimes much larger than itsself, or die trying.

You have experience with great danes fighting? Well let's all bow down to you because you know so much more than us because you've witness big, gentle, low-drive dogs get into a scrap. Have you ever seen terriers fight? Two 14 lb jack russells are harder to break up than two great danes, and much less than breaking up a pittie fight.

4. I hope to God you don't get a pit bull before you get off your high horse and take the time to learn something about them. And you know what (and I'm breaking the first Chaz rule and I don't even care)? I don't hope you get off your high horse, I hope you fall off and land in the mud and feel stupid, just like you try to make everyone else feel.

Oh, and head to your local library and pick up these books:

Becca, you might want to reconsider keeping up high value items (ask your trainer or someone here...)...I think it's probably important for them to learn to respect each other's space and "belongings" while they're still young and able to work it out calmly. I don't think this is a sign the dogs will turn D/A but if in six months one of them snags a bone or something or you forget to pick it up or whatever, and the other tries to grab it, that might not turn out so pretty.

Gunnar will resource guard against other dogs. We only give high resource treats/toys when they are separated to ensure no fights break out. Gunnar is fine to eat around Layla but she knows not to bother his food bowl. I do generally feed Gunnar separate from the other animals as it is just safer to do so.

Layla and Gunnar have squabbled a few times when I let them lick something like the broiler pan. These 'fights' are easily broken up by a firm Knock it off! and neither has ever sustained any real injury from them.

While as others have said you should let them work it out to an extent I would obviously be vigilant watching their interactions and making sure Ophie starts to understand your fosters request to be left alone when he asks.

The growling over resources will not inherently lead to dog aggression but is certainly something to keep a watchful eye on, even when only dealing with pups.

You guys will do great by both these dogs! I have 100% faith in your abilities especially since you are willing to ask what you are unsure of.

I don't know if you want my advice or not Becca. I don't have much experience with Pit Bulls, (other than a few clients' dogs...never had one myself) but I do have lots of experience with multiple dogs and DA. But personally, if I had super guardy dogs and especially dogs hardwired for the propensity to "get into it," I'd keep the high value stuff away from them when they are in the same area. They can be fed in separate rooms and don't really need to "learn" how to eat right next to each other or eat out of the same bowl. I'd just elimate that added stress. There are some types of exercises one can work on to show the dog that having the other dog near his stuff actually pays off. And that getting snarky actually wrecks the chances of getting to stick around where the action is. But those things take a lot of work and diligence. Bottom line...you still have to supervise like crazy. So, like I said, I'd just reduce the tension before it has a chance to get started by keeping the things out of the room when they're together that set off the high level of competition, be it food, bones or a favorite toy.

I agree about letting the one growl or show threatening body language IF the other is respecting that (backing off) right away. If not, things can escalate like you said, from 0 to 100 in a heart beat.

I've seen a few pieces of what I thought were good advice from RFD but this.....the idea that Pit Bulls are somehow defective if they act this way is showing a lack of understanding about the type of dogs they are and a lack of dog behavior in general. Resource guarding is absolutely normal behavior in ALL animals. The worry is that terriers, if they begin to fight, don't let up as easily as many breeds. I don't think being DA is "out of control" or too much for you to handle at all. It's just about management, as you are fully aware. And by your asking for more ideas, it just shows me that you are covering all bases BEFORE anything could get out of control.

I've also seen a lot of advice RMF I disagree with...that is pretty much common knowledge, like the one about stress not having anything to do with digestive problems. (dog was pooping in the new house after one of the owners had left to live somewhere else. New house, one owner disappeared). And that a dog's learned behavior regressing is abnormal or that he gets it in one place, but not in a new house. (ie: a potty training post) That is so not true. So, it makes me wonder just how much experience and education RMF really has. Actually, 15 years experience with dogs isn't that much anyhow. I've had 50 years experience with dogs and some education, formal and informal. And I still ask questions and don't have answers for everything.

Whatever the length of time you've had in terms of experience, I don't see the probability by some of your statements. This hurtful remark about Becca sticking to a simpler breed because you think she's inexperienced on account of her asking a question like this is....well...I'll just say, incomprehensibly dumb.

You waltz onto this forum as a new member and presume to know all about a long standing member and her experience with dogs. Don't be so full of yourself. The most highly respected, world famous trainers and behaviorists, whose books I've read, have trainers they consult with. They don't come off as egotistical as you do. Are you insecure and so have to over-compensate? Or what?

my, some of you are just too rich. everyone needs to calm down and look in the mirror, there's lots of funny stuff in here and so much irony, but I bet those that should see it won't, they're too busy piling on and typing with emotion.

Yup...you've got that right. :rofl1:

You're new here, right? :rofl1: