"curing" reactivity

Aggressive dogs ARE reactive. (that was one thing I remember taking away from Dr Ian Dunbar's seminar on agression in the pet dog) Pretty much all aggressive dogs are aggressing out of fear. So fear aggressive or reactive same deal 99% of the time. When he talked about his 'growl classes' for aggressive dogs, the dogs he was describing are what you call reactive. (which yes aggressive dogs can join)

If a dog lunges and bites someone, does that make it reactive or aggressive. I would say both. If the dog snarled and tried to keep the threat away I would say its reactive. But really there is no definitive word on what it means in the current vernacular.

Reactivity generally just means hyper reactivity in most cases.

You could have a dog that was completely over stimulated by the site of prey, you would do the same/similar sorts of things to calm that dog around the stimulus, as if it was fear aggression with another dog.

Its about teaching control of an emotional response. Which is why its so hard. Its not a thinking reaction on the dog's part.

And here is where my dog is different. Everyone assumes she had a bad experience or something. Well, she didn't. I even had one lady argue this point with me. She said there HAD to be some reason, something I didn't witness or whatever. Well the dog was born in my bedroom. I know her genetics aren't horrible.

It was literally a lightswitch that went off in her head at 4 months old. I remember the day specifically. She was fine one moment and completely inconsolable the next. She has never been the same since that day. She is just hardwired wrong.

I was really lucky with Strider. Reactivity doesn't seem to be hardwired into him very strongly, that or the types of self control training we did with him early on helped him overcome it.

Honesty I'm not sure what amount of progress someone would need to make to consider a case of reactivity successfully resolved. I've met dogs like yours, who hit a fear period and never seem to come out of it, and I'm not really sure how I would handle it. I'd probably try the same things that worked with Strider, but with lower expectations.

Then again, different breeds are going to have different thresholds for various stimuli. ACDs from my experience, are not a trusting bunch when it comes to strangers. For a dog that has some anxiety on top of that, it probably wouldn't take much to push them over threshold.

Not necessarily. I have a high drive dog who is not reactive. I also have a lower drive dog who is more reactive.

The problem with that is that reactivity and agrgession are not at all the same thing. Nyx is very reactive. But I have never seen any indication that she's aggressive. I have also seen many aggressive dogs who I would not call reactive. They are very calm and collected while aggressing.

IMO, it does a huge disservice to both reactive dogs and aggressive dogs to try to use the terms interchangeably. However, if you want to get away from using the terms DA/HA, I'd suggest using DD/HD (defensive) which is what it often is.

I was meaning as a general rule. I think corgis and mals are fairly high drive. I was thinking more along the line of low drive non working types. They are goign to react to stimuli in general less than a drivey type.

Of course not all drivey dogs will be reactive. Loads of drivey dogs are not, in the way this thread is meaning reactive.

Wow... amazing job with your pup! He sounds like a very stable dog now.

I noticed that a LOT of people have reactive dogs, too. I think it's because the term is used soooo loosely to describe soooo many behaviors. Honestly, the majority of dogs that I see on walks are reactive, always with their owners jerking them around and yelling at them. It makes me sad! I used to not believe that desensitizing was effective, at least not without being crazy involved and time consuming. But I definitely changed my mind seeing the results, especially with Fozzie. Both of my dogs have had reactivity issues in the past, to other dogs on-leash.

Gonzo became reactive when he was around 1 1/2, stemming from me not recognizing his limits, following a trainer's (Flyball) instructions to "pop" him with a choker when he reacted happily/excitedly to other running dogs, and probably a few other factors. He became a complete mess around other dogs on-leash. I got into +r classes for 2 years and he was doing formal obedience without even glancing at the other dogs around him. It did take me a while to work through Gonzo's issues, because he was badly neglected before I had him, fearful, and I was 14 and had no idea what I was doing. But we changed together.

Fozzie became reactive after not one, but TWO attacks by off-leash dogs while walking my dogs on-leash. Fozz was never attacked, and never has been, the dogs all went after Gonzo. He was a little bit wary and grumpy toward other dogs on-leash after the first... but I was in denial because he was my sweet, laid back boy! After the second, he went instantly to lunging (not really lunge, jump into the air rather) and growling at even unthreatening dogs. At that point, I had already read Click to Calm & CU & a bunch of great books that I had practiced with Gonzo over the years, so I practiced a little on every walk every day. I habitually starting bringing treats and a clicker on walks and just practiced. It wasn't hard, or boring, it was easy and pleasant. He instantly started seeing other dogs as a positive and within a couple of months he was heeling and staring at me past 2 Pemmies who were lunging and barking on flexis within inches of him!

Both have their days when they get annoyed, by a Boxer screaming and dragging their owner toward them... but they revert their attention back to me after just a little lip curl to let her know she's a brat. And I'm ok with that. I don't want them to be emotionless or supressed, but I want them to exercise self control and always obey me.

Archie was very reactive to just dogs, really... He trained awesomely with lots of hard work, but still doesn't like dogs. He'll just ignore them. He earned his CGC last year! He still has issues with the dogs that come into the house sometimes if they're rambunctious, but when out on a leash he's an angel. I took him to a huge extremely crowded festival a month or so ago, and he did beautifully. Unfortunately, recently he's been diagnosed with an ailment that affects his mental health... So that's the end of that.

I think training method and master/k9 relationship has an impact on how quickly you get improvement on a reactive dog. I can think of two cases that belong to a cousin of mine.

One dog was trained to stable control in public settings with all positive methods. There was steady improvement in the dogs behavior over the next 3 years that he was worked with. By then he was able to pass the AKC CGC test.

The other dog was started in all positive methods. After almost a full year the dog had shown no improvement at all. The method was then changed to compulsion and praise. By the end of the second year that dog passed the CGC as well.

I think results will always be differant for each reactive dog. I've seen some dogs never come out of the behavior and have to be managed their entire lives, and I've seen some do a 180 in six months.

In the end I think it will often come down to the dedication of the handler. Once in a while there will be a dog that just can't be swayed, but they are not a common as many would have you think.

To the OP congrats on all your hard work with your dog. Dogs give us unconditional love and devotion, it is great to see an owner who responds to that great gift with affection and dedication through training.

Congrats!!! Such huge accomplishments!

Lucy is reactive to select dogs. I think she's very sensitive and in tune to reading other dog's signals. We can walk by a dozen dogs and be fine, and #13 will set her off. (Makes it very difficult to practice, since I don't really know what's going to set her off)

She was SUPER reactive to buses and trucks (which was great, since we lived across from an elementary school....) but we've worked REALLY hard to get through that. Now, unless we're standing right on the corner with a bus going by, she's fine.

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and support!


I owe the forum actually for part of my success so far. Had I gotten him, two dogs ago or so, I would have made it very much worse. Having read the posts here, and the advice I was able to recognize his problem the moment I saw it (i still remember his first outburst and thinking "ah I see now" ) and not have to do any sort of cleaning up after trying to wrong routes with him. For that I thank you all


as far as the reactive/aggressive argument. I have always wondered how people made such a distinction. My understanding is most aggression (baring predatory drift and mental illness) is fear based. But am I understanding that the difference for term useage.. is a dog that follows thru and bites/fights vs a dog thats all bluff?

it absolutely gives me the heebie jeebies to see compulsion-based methods recommended for any reactive dog, especially given the high percentage of reactive dogs who are reacting out of fear.

just because positive methods were used doesn't mean they were used correctly.

This was the same person with two rescues and that was the route the owner took with each dog under the instrcution of a professional trainer.

I personaly reccomend seeking professional help for ANY reactive dog. Some are fearful, some are not. In this case the first dog was infact reacting out of fear as a puppymill dog. The second dog was a working Malinos that was aggressive due to NO training and poor handleing. Both were evaluated buy 3 trainers and one behaviorist so that the proper training plan could be applied baised on tempermant, issue, and skill of the handler.

In most Postive only circles the Mal would have been put down. His owner decided that a prong collar correction was not a fate worse than death.

Would I have taken this route? Doubtful. But I have never taken in a dog with extreeme issues.

Not IMO.

A dog that is reactive is, well, a dog that REACTS. Now, to some extent all dogs react (unless they're completely shut down). Reactivity is generally a term used when the dog's reactions are extreme. Not just an "Oh, look at that" but "OMG! Something HAPPENED!!!!!" Reactivity is a low stimuli threshold.

Parade a flock of geese in front of Nyx and she'll go "OMG!!!! GEESE!!!" and her herding switch will be triggered. Pick up a ball and she'll say "OMG!!!! BALL!!!!" and her play switch is on. No aggression involved, but definitely reactive.

Now take Ares. A dog gets in his space and he'll curl a lip, let out a low growl. He won't move much at all. If that dog backs off, Ares will quietly go back to what he was doing. If that dog continues to bother him, he'll bite. Aggressive? Yes...or better term...defensive. Reactive? Not so much. Parade a flock of geese in front of him though and he'll say "OMG!!!! GEESE!!!!" and he is a little more reactive in that situation.

Now, take those geese and parade them in front of Tyr. He'll look at them, then he'll look at me and wait for permission to be sent. He wasn't taught to do that mind you, he just isn't reactive to geese. But he absolutely will go drive them off when sent.

aaaaahhh ha!! That you for the example. I see what you are getting at.

Congratulations! What an acheivement for you and your dog. It truly gives me hope for my girl as well. How proud you must be!

I also do not think you can 'cure' reactivity, as much as manage it. I think my girl will always be predisposed to certain outbursts in certain situations.

However, there is a lot we can achieve. And we are getting there, albeit slowly. I try and focus on this and work with the dog I have and the skills I have.

Think i'm a little late to the party, but here goes..

I have a Chihuahua x Dachshund (very cute... and long, but not long enough to be called a sausage) and he would go ballistic at anything. He was very skittish (must be the Chihuahua in him?).

But with much training, he is now a model citizen. Mind you, it took many months to get him to even START to settle down. He would sleep uneasily, with an eye half open, listening for sounds.
It took awhile to get over his neurosis, but once we did, the real training could begin.

We tried noise training (knocking on doors, and walls, clapping etc... all the things that used to set him off) After he got used to that, we would take him for walks down the road, moving up to progressively louder and busier streets as his behaviour improved.

As he overcame each hurdle, from the easiest to hardest (random noises, to engaging with loud kids in a busy room) He became more confident, and now he LOVES being interactive with his world.

Every now and again, he will bark at what he thinks is people here (Which is what I want him to do), but it is "voluntary" and he manages it well.

I have found that the key to overcoming skittishness and uncontrollable behaviour is to acknowledge it, and try to understand WHY your dog is behaving that way. Only then can you figure out the best way to stop it in YOUR dog. (Different dog personalities mean different methods)

Here's to everyone's best efforts

Greg

Very good thread, and I wish I'd read it sooner.

Ozzy is three now, and while I consider him reactive I also consider him DA. I'm not sure how much of it is fear based, but I'm guessing that a large percentage is. He reacts to dogs both on and off leash, and is aggressive when meeting new dogs. He has to establish when the other dog is in relation to him, and to him, it's always beneath him. He is the fun police as well. If two dogs are playing and having fun without him, he gets aggressive, usually towards the dog he doesn't know as well.

I think if I was more diligent in working with him around other dogs he would be better about it. The problem with him is that he is VERY vocal and embarrassing about it, and people ALWAYS want to bring their dogs over to say Hi. Even Enzo who loves everything and everyone doesn't care for meeting new dogs on leash, but people are, for the most part, stupid.

He's reactive even in places that don't have dogs in them if he's seen dogs there before, like Petsmart.

Hi Charlie,

Do you think that maybe your dogs reactions are based on a "Small dog" mentality?

Obviously, for my situation that was sometimes the case, but it's not unheard of for a larger dog to feel emasculated, perhaps as a result of something that happened to them as a pup that has stuck with them, and formed a small dog mentality.

That may explain strange behaviour in stores etc. He can smell obviously BIG dog scents, and it may worry him.

There is nothing you can do to figure out what it could be, but you can monitor your pooch, and calm him when he first begins to exhibit any form of stress -- before he starts to panic.

Such cases often involve some form of neurosis. Dogs always have reasons for doing what they do.

I agree that dogs always have reasons. But I don't think most dogs think of it a as a size thing. Dekka will happily call out a dobe if she feels its a threat. I also had to train her not to try to eat horses (she is just over 11 inches tall) As well there is no such thing as 'big dog smell' .

Reactive dogs come in all sizes. Yes if you are tiny and feel more threatened by large dogs, then large dogs could be a trigger. But in most cases I don't really see it. Dekka reacts to dogs similar to ones she has had issues with in the past. BC are an issue, but so are mini aussies..

Wow! I sure joined this party late. Congrats on your success! You did a great job....very dedicated.

My late Doberman, Lyric was what I'd call reactive, (to dogs only) but not aggressive. Toward people, he was the perfect gentleman and completely unfazed by people zooming on skate boards, running, biking right past us...even inches past us....completely unconcerned. But dogs.....another story. He never wound up actually attacking another dog. And off leash, he was hardly reactive at all. He wasn't reactive in class situations and we could do agility and obedience fine. It was only on casual leash walks around the neighborhood where he would lunge toward another dog on a leash, snarl and bark. And it wasn't even all dogs....just some. If a dog came onto my property, he'd run toward it....sometimes barking and then stop 20 ft. short and just stare. Then maybe he'd mosey up close and just check out the other dog like normal dogs do. When dogs are off leash and allowed to communicate with each other naturally, without being confined and "contorted" by a leash, they very often will avoid conflict and even get along.

We worked on this leash thing whenever I could. There weren't a lot of dogs for me to practice with here, but when I went to Seattle and walked on this path where a lot of dogs frequented, we'd practice there. Of course, it was only about 3-4 times a year, each time, maybe a week to 3 weeks long. So, he got much better, learned some alternatives....but not as "better" as I would have liked. I used some of the skills discussed in Click to Calm.

Reactive means reactive. LOL. It doesn't say HOW the dog is reacting. A dog might react merely by turning his head and looking at another dog or whatever the stimuli. So, to me, aggression is a reaction, but it describes the reaction more specifically. How is the dog reacting? Aggressively. What is aggressive? Is it actually biting? Or can aggression mean simply overly pushy? We use terms with various perameters and various flexibility.

Lyric acted aggressive....pushy, snarly, showing all his teeth sometimes. But he didn't go all the way up to a dog and didn't bite or start a fight. Some of the time, he'd change his mind and decide he might like to play with another dog after the initial macho man thing. LOL. His little stubby tail would start to go bing, bing, bing.....back and forth and he might even engage in a play bow. But I tell you what. A good deal of the time, he looked scary as hell and it was embarrassing to say the least. And one time, he pulled me down prone in one of his lunging escapades. I called him the F word, grabbed his muzzle and yelled at him. :yikes: I "reacted" reflexively but not correctly or wisely. That was before we started class and we had just entered the arena. So not only was I embarrassed by his behavior, but I was by mine too. Very much so. He hadn't gotten into his "work ethic mode" yet, I guess. Once we started being organized, he was fine around the other dogs. They'd be in a line-up on a long down stay, for instance, side by side and he just minded his own business and watched me.

So, I think it's safe to say that reactivity is some kind of non-specific description of some kind of noticeable reaction to a stimuli. And aggression is excessive pushiness and/or dangerous aggression, where biting might be involved.

Overly reactive or aggressive dogs are acting on the instinct of flight distance. There are only two ways to create flight distance. You either make the other guy go away by doing something.... or you run away to create space in between the two of you. Invariably, this desire for flight distance is fueled by fear...fear of losing one's territory, fear of losing another resource, fear of being hurt etc.

And dogs have different styles of creating this distance. The dog may not be a shivering, shrinking mess. Some have that personality and some don't. One dog's style might be to look very forward and unafraid and push on with determination. So, it looks like the dog is just flat out aggressive and brave. But deep inside, he is probably insecure and his style to create flight distance is to act strong and brave to make the other guy go away.

Some dogs will start out with that forward, lunging, non-hesitation and then when push comes to shove, they'll back off and simmer down. That was Lyric.

But I think that most all aggression and reactivity has it's roots in fear. So punishment, force, compulsion...what have you.... or associating more of a rotten time with the trigger is a big mistake. After one or two foul-ups by me, I got on the right track and he over came a lot of it.