Improving Your Breed

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#21
One other thing that I would add.... is for people to start realizing bloat is a problem in certain lines and they need to stop breeding dogs who have generation after generation after generation of bloat dogs behind them.... but instead they ignore it, or try to hide the fact that it's there! It really bothers me.

I've seen it first hand. I personally feel a large percentage of it, is caused by genetics. I have pedigrees of various dogs saved on my computer that I know for a fact, have multiple dogs in several generations that have bloated behind them.. and people still breed them... often back to other dogs with a pedigree full of bloat dogs, and they think nothing of this!!.
However, since there is no test to show a predisposition for it and no CLEAR CUT proof it's genetic (although I too believe it is genetic), breeders will tiptoe around it and make excuses when it happens. Therefore, like CEA, PRA, and DM, bloat too will continue to plague the breed.
 

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#22
How are collie ears? Is taping just about mandatory to get the "collie look" or should the collie ears stand and tip without assistance? I've got my popcorn out and I am ready to learn.
The standard doesn't state HOW they get there, just how they should look. ;) In the US, you'd be hard pressed to find a Collie with naturally tipping, untouched ears. It does occur though. We've got quite a few dogs out there in service work that have one prick and one naturally tipped - the prick ear is the one with the organization's mandatory tattoo and the scar tissue causes it to go prick, but the natural ear IS natural. :)

And just to add, heavy ears are not usually the problem with the Collies. Left to their own devices, most will pull them up nicely on their head by themselves, but they will also go prick while doing so, especially during teething and/or first estrus. There are some with heavy ears, but that's not the norm.
 
Last edited:

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#23
Just to add ... the natural ears were a little more common 30 yrs ago ...

(Don't laugh at the kid ... it's me ... :p)

All of these dogs have natural ears ...
 

Artfish

Drivey and Intense
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
102
Likes
0
Points
0
#24
Katie, good information, thank you! I love the ears of the dogs in your photo; the natural look has the best expression, but that's my non-collie-fancier opinion. :)

Regarding bloat, I think it is genetic first above all else. We have plenty of deep-chested animals that do not bloat. I believe something went wrong for a lot of breeds and now that we have the genetics, diet and exercise can contribute. A lot of people will say "do this/do that," but plenty of dogs have bloated on soaked kibble, kibble without citric acid, raw diet, just water, exercise, no exercise, I don't think it really matters. If your dog has the genetics for bloat, it WILL bloat, it's just a matter of time. My GSD mix has bloated several times already. Thank goodness no torsion yet but we keep the GasX very handy and if I don't hear burps or if I think he is uncomfortable, he gets at least two pills immediately. We are an hour away from any E-vet so this is the best we can do and yes we did have one ER visit already (but he burped during the car ride... doofus). He'll bloat again for sure, we just watch him very closely and are always ready to give GasX. I'll give it WITH meals even if I feel he is stressing a lot.
 

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#25
Katie, good information, thank you! I love the ears of the dogs in your photo; the natural look has the best expression, but that's my non-collie-fancier opinion. :)
Thanks!

You won't see the low set natural ears like the dogs in my other pic ... that was another era. While breeding for better (tighter) earset, you often end up with an ear that wants to go prick too easy.



Ears are pretty low on my list of qualities, as you can see. These guys had tipped ears long enough to finish their CHs, then I let them go as they would. :p
 

Artfish

Drivey and Intense
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
102
Likes
0
Points
0
#26
Katie, all beautiful but the two on the ends are GORGEOUS!

Speaking of bloat, mine is licking the air and the carpet and hacking and pacing so guess who just got two GasX just in case??? Siiiigh.
 

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#27
Katie, all beautiful but the two on the ends are GORGEOUS!

Speaking of bloat, mine is licking the air and the carpet and hacking and pacing so guess who just got two GasX just in case??? Siiiigh.
The one in the middle is 10 yrs old and hates cameras - he is much more handsome in real life. ;)

And it sounds to me like your dog is taking extreme measures to get you off the computer!!! :eek: Hope all is well ...
 

PWCorgi

Priscilla Winifred Corgi
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
14,854
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
34
Location
Twin Citay!
#28
This thread is making me want a collie, that is all...


Oh, and corgi people need to stop breeding such freaking overly-long dogs. Common sense says that'll end badly...
 

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#29
I started to feel like a thread hog, but no one else was saying anything!! :(

I think any of the short long dogs are getting too much shorter and too much longer. (OK, it's grammatically incorrect, but you get the point ...)
 

Artfish

Drivey and Intense
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
102
Likes
0
Points
0
#30
Don't worry, you're making me want collies, too! I also agree with the trend toward breeding for extremes and that is never good. Some dogs are long enough to make snakes jealous.

My dog's going nutso. Off to give him GasX #3. Keeping close watch on him. He's done this often enough that I don't panic at this point. We'll be okay, thanks for the well wishes. :)
 

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
2,297
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Central Florida
#31
Off thread topic, but have you considered a bloat kit?

CHF Logo Items

Scroll down to bloat kit ...

Included in kit: foal tube, 4" roll of vetrap, 4-14 gauge 1 1/2" needles, lubricant, illustrated instructions. To complete the kit, you must purchase simethicone (Gas-X) at your local pharmacy. Simethicone must be occasionally replenished with fresh dated supply.
 

Artfish

Drivey and Intense
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
102
Likes
0
Points
0
#32
I have thought of it, probably should go ahead and get it and see if the vet can teach me to tube him. Kinda stupid of me not to have one if I'm so far from an e-vet.

ETA: Already calming down. No more licking, less pacing. Gotta love GasX.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
212
Likes
0
Points
16
Location
North Carolina
#33
Honest question, and this is coming from a breed whose ears are also make-or-break for the image: if a dog's ears must be taped for it to stand erect, and the breed standard calls for naturally erect (not requiring cropping) ears, would it be a better practice to stop breeding dogs that consistently produce dogs with weak ears/large ears/etc? I know we're talking a silly cosmetic issue when we have much bigger fish to fry in collies and GSDs, but it does irk me that these genes for large and heavy ears get passed on. GSDs are not supposed to have satellite dishes for ears, they shouldn't require taping, and, unless the dog would make von Stephanitz stand up from the grave in jubilant applause, it probably should not be bred.

How are collie ears? Is taping just about mandatory to get the "collie look" or should the collie ears stand and tip without assistance? I've got my popcorn out and I am ready to learn.

As far as Collie ears. They don't usually need to be taped to stand erect, most of the time the dogs ears will go up just fine on their own... and be prick....so often times they do need to have the tips taped over for a little while (usually through teething) to tip correctly... though not always.


This is a bitch I sold as a puppy, who came back to me a little over a year ago (but she now lives with a breeder friend of mine in Ohio).... her ears were really barely touched as a puppy.... and here she is at 3 yrs of age. I call her pretty natural eared. Her sister, who my brother owns is the same way. Now her rough brother, Pete, that my mom has, his ears are actually low... very low...

This is Pete (rough tri).. as you can see his ears are a bit to low, and I taped them for almost a year!! and every time they came out, the ears flopped... they really just come up at the bases, and fall foward.


Ben (8 yr old smooth blue - he was also my first champion - ears haven't been touched since he was a about 8 months old) and Pete...

I have found, smooths are some times harder to get good tipping ears on (compared to roughs) because roughs obviously have more hair on their ears, which helps to weight the ears down. At least with the roughs I have had, as my roughs are VERY hairy headed!! LOL



However, since there is no test to show a predisposition for it and no CLEAR CUT proof it's genetic (although I too believe it is genetic), breeders will tiptoe around it and make excuses when it happens. Therefore, like CEA, PRA, and DM, bloat too will continue to plague the breed.
Honestly, if breeders want to be to stupid to recognize they have an issue with bloat, then that is their own problem I guess. There are certain lines of dogs I will not TOUCH because of obvious bloat issues. I know there is not proof it's genetic, but I feel MOST cases are genetic in nature.

I have had 2 Collies bloat.... the first bloat I had was in a 7 MONTH old rough male. He bloated on an empty stomach, in the middle of the night. He survived and was neutered. Almost exactly 1 yr later his father (owned by a friend of mine) died of bloat.... also on an empty stomach!

If breeders can't look at their own pedigrees and see all the dogs that have bloated.. and not realize SOME THING is wrong here, then they really need to stop breeding. It's not just some random dog bloats... it's generation after generation! It really bothers me when breeders just sweep an issue under the rug, so to speak, and act like it's not a problem.... especially a life threatening issue! Or they make up stupid excuses to justify it.

It cost me $1500 to save my bloating puppy 6-7 yrs ago. And that was the low end of the estimate for ER treatment, because I caught it early and he was only hospitalized for 36 hrs!!

I'm looking at a 4 generation pedigree right now. In that pedigree, just on the dams side of the family I can name SEVEN dogs that have bloated. That is just one side of the pedigree, in 4 generations. This pedigree is based on a pretty popular line too. The two dogs I had who bloated are closely related to the dogs on this pedigree.
 

noodlerubyallie

Sprayin' the spiders
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
1,181
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Iowa
#34
Dobermans: DCM is the mysterious and sudden killer. Everyone knows about it, worries about it, and there's nothing we can do about it but try to breed away from dogs we know died of it.

Thyroid issues, liver issues, cancer, elbow/hip dysplasia...you name it, Dobermans are pretty commonly afflicted with it.

As a result, most dogs don't live past their 10th or 11th birthday.

Temperaments are big issue. BYB's and breeders who breed dogs without any regard to temperament/health are ruining this breed. They are creating unstable dogs that give others a bad rap, and Dobermans don't need help with that.
 

FoxyWench

Salty Sea Dog
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
7,308
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Connecticut
#35
on the cresties id like to see an improvment on the hairless skin...
too many breeders seem to say "dealing with skin issues comes with the breed" and i dont think that should be the case.

id also like to see the abilities that brought the breed to the world, as much as the breed is NOW a companion breed, many still have strong ratting and sight hunting instincts, id like to see this being brought back to the breed, it may make them less popular in the "pet" group of fanciers, but i feel that instinct is just as important since thats what the bred origionally did, and many still have it in them.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top