training an automatic response

dogsarebetter · Nov 18, 2009

How exactly would you go about training an automatic response?
I would love to have Ruckus automatically lay down when he wants to be reactive with loud cars, and motorcycles.
Like the loud car, or the motorcycle becomes a cue for him to lay down.

Is there a way to teach a dog to lay down when ever they want to be reactive? Then instead of the cars, and motorcycles being the cue to lay down, his stress would be the cue.

Does this make any sense! I am having word trouble today

release the hounds · Nov 18, 2009

are you wanting this for when you're around or when he's left alone?

i'm assuming it's for when you're out on walks and things like that, but I gotta say I probably wouldn't do what you're suggesting.

It's probably a reaction based in fear. It's odd, but no joke, I was reading about this stuff last night. I haven't picked up a dog behavior book in 9 months probably, but for some reason I did last night ad read about 3 whole pages before I put it back down and it was talking about this sort of things.

Maybe it was a coincidence maybe not, but usually movement at first, active games, tug, walking, coming to you etc with rewards at first are good for overcoming the stimulus, and then as he gets better you can cue him to do certain things that end well for him.

if you're using his "stress" to cue him to lay down, then you'll also have to be able to remove that stress in a controlled manner when he lays down to teach him that laying down is removing what is making him feel uncomfortable. That isn't really practical or fun training imo.

in addition, trying to teach a passive exercise like the down, can only lean towards heightening his fear in the presence of a stimulus that causes this stress and reactivity. movement and interaction (fun and meaningful interaction) on your part and his is what will get him over this. Making him go passive and hold it in the face of this reactive stimuli will only allow him to focus more intensely on it and increase his reactions in time.

it will lesson the stress he feels and will also allow you to put certain things on cue and you can control that and what he's rewarded with much better than you can control the stimulus.

make sense?

corgipower · Nov 18, 2009

dogsarebetter said:

I have taught an automatic down to a dog who was worried about things, but she was not reactive. She would get worried, her face would change and she'd run away with her tail tucked. As soon as she'd see something she was going to be worried about, I'd immediately ask for a down and reward her for doing so. She then would lie there and realize that the cause of her worry was not actually anything to be worried about. The down became automatic and she would see something unfamiliar and drop without a command and lie there quite pleased with herself and relaxed. I really got lucky with her and the way it worked and it's not something I would suggest trying with most dogs.

A sit would be better in so far as being a less vulnerable position for the dog and teach him to reorient to you. Use gradual desensitization and counterconditioning to build positive associations.

Doberluv · Nov 18, 2009

release the hounds said:

I agree with this post. Additionally, teaching a dog to lie down (a vulnerable and scary position anyhow) or any one particular behavior when he's about to be stressed, turns the down into a stress cue. Lying down can become a conditioned stressor if it's always paired with a scary time. In other words, the down tells him he's about to experience stress or fear and you don't want that anticipation to develop in a chronic way.

I would vary the distractions you want to use to help dissipate his stress. You could have him "watch" you or give him something to do that involves movement, as suggested.

In addition and very important would be to desensatize him to the fearful stimuli....using distance and high value treats or toys to pair the stimuli with happy things. Keep him at a distance at first, which makes it tolerable for him. If you keep him below his stress level by doing this, then you can attach a sit or some particular position because it will come to signify that a tolerable thing is about to happen. And then, as he becomes more calm in the presence of cars and things, as your desensatizing program starts working on him, that behavior will become a signal that he's going to get a treat or some other nice thing. But at first, I'd vary those things so they don't become stress signals in themselves.

Hope that mumbo jumbo makes sense.

dogsarebetter · Nov 18, 2009

thank you all!

Shadow_Spitz · Nov 19, 2009

DoberLuv nailed it! What you want to do is definitely work on your CCDS (counterconditioning + desensitization). The key is to make sure that your dog isn't too stressed to learn (stress inhibits to some extent his learning capabilities), so you always have to be far away that he barely reacts to the fear causing stimulus but close enough that he knows its there. This is technically called being under the fear threshold.

Once you find out at what distance away from the car noises he isn't so reactive against then you can start counterconditioning, as suggested above the best counterconditioning command for your case would be the "Watch Me" command. After all image that you are walking down a sidewalk, it would be completely unpractical having your dog lay when a dog zooms by, instead having him look at you and you reassuring or distracting him will not only be more practical but easier for your dog. And its perfectly fine to comfort your dog. Offer a few reassuring words and maybe a nice pat.

Hope that summary helps but in case you need a little more 'step by step' kind of guide, heres something that might help you: Fearful Dogs - Fearful dog, Dogs afraid of people, dogs, thunder, fireworks - phobias

Best of wishes!

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

guys, i really dont think his behavior is fear based though.

he runs to the fence, tail up high, ears erect.

how do you know if its fear based or not? To me he just looks excited because he is about to get to chase a car, etc through the fence.

Shadow_Spitz · Nov 19, 2009

dogsarebetter said:

Ohh its more of a chase drive thing then? Well to some extent the advice above still applies, you need to stay below the threhold that makes him reactive and subsitute for the response you want.

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

thanks everyone.

Yeah, i really think its that he is sooo worked up because of chase/herding drive.
i wish i could get it on video and post it for everyone to see!

Ruckus is a fearful dog, and he does have fear issues, but this looks different.

corgipower · Nov 19, 2009

dogsarebetter said:

Not sure how much that really matters, except in that if it's not fear based, you don't need the same amount of desensitizing/positive association building. But the methods done to do the desensitizing and build positive associations will simultaneously create more focus on you ~ the giver of all things good.

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

It matters because since Ruckus is not scared then putting him in a vonderable position shouldnt matter. right?

Doberluv said:

I agree with this post. Additionally, teaching a dog to lie down (a vulnerable and scary position anyhow) or any one particular behavior when he's about to be stressed, turns the down into a stress cue. Lying down can become a conditioned stressor if it's always paired with a scary time. In other words, the down tells him he's about to experience stress or fear and you don't want that anticipation to develop in a chronic way.

I would vary the distractions you want to use to help dissipate his stress. You could have him "watch" you or give him something to do that involves movement, as suggested.

In addition and very important would be to desensatize him to the fearful stimuli....using distance and high value treats or toys to pair the stimuli with happy things. Keep him at a distance at first, which makes it tolerable for him. If you keep him below his stress level by doing this, then you can attach a sit or some particular position because it will come to signify that a tolerable thing is about to happen. And then, as he becomes more calm in the presence of cars and things, as your desensatizing program starts working on him, that behavior will become a signal that he's going to get a treat or some other nice thing. But at first, I'd vary those things so they don't become stress signals in themselves.

Hope that mumbo jumbo makes sense.

corgipower · Nov 19, 2009

dogsarebetter said:

You mean a "down"?

I would still opt for either moving behaviors or looking at you calmly and letting him choose the position. To get a down in situations when he's overstimulated requires him to first not be overstimulated in those situations.

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

when he gets stimulated he will lay down when i tell him to. he will actually even come as he is in mid flight to chase something. so I can get him to lay, or come when he is worked up.

I am just wondering how to make this an automatic response.

corgipower · Nov 19, 2009

dogsarebetter said:

By asking for the same behavior every time right before he becomes stimulated. The stimulus eventually becomes the cue when they're paired for long enough. It's really critical to get the timing just right.

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

thanks!
how many repetitions should I expect to do before its default?

corgipower · Nov 19, 2009

dogsarebetter said:

Hard to say. Depends on how excellent your timing is, because if you're at all early or late, he won't make the connection. You might see him start offering the behavior automatically, but maybe not every time or maybe not fully performing the behavior (like bowing instead of downing) and you still need to step in and help him and reward the effort.

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

I think Ruckus is going to like this. it will be a fun game for him!

release the hounds · Nov 19, 2009

I gotta ask what fun would it be tohave yor dog lay down evry time he was feeling stimulated?

misfitz · Nov 19, 2009

Good points by all. I would just add, that if it's a chase drive you can use the chase as a reward for laying down. (Making sure it's safe for the dog, of course, and for the chasee.) This can speed up his association, and makes the down kind of a way for him to ask permission to chase (or sniff, greet, or whatever.) A few of the dogs in my neighborhood are similarly trained, to lay down before greeting another dog on a walk. I agree that it isn't a good strategy for a fearful or reactive dog, but it seems to work well for the well-adjusted but overly boisterous greeter.

dogsarebetter · Nov 19, 2009

I wish there was a magic pill to fix this dog.

I get so upset. I dont feel like I am qualified to have a dog like him. I dont know what the hell I am doing................

just letting him bark and chase etc is better than me messing him up by trying to fix him.

training an automatic response

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