The Jax Instinct Test Video

Laurelin

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#41
You don't have to do herding, I was just posting an option you perhaps hadn't thought of. The texas Sheepdog Association though would probably be your best bet in finding an instructor if you decide to try it again. Who knows, there may be more instructors that the people you asked didn't know of. Also, they have a list of trials around texas. I've been to a couple and they were really great experiences.

Anyways here's the link if you want to check it out: Texas Sheep Dog Association Home Page

If you would prefer agility, then do that. Jax won't care what activity you do with him. Agility is what I enjoy, so that's what I've done. I miss training and wish I didn't live in the middle of nowhere!
 

JoeLacy

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#42
Thank Laurelin, I'll look at that. I live in the middle of everywhere. :)

We do have some things coming up early next year to go check out. Dallas/Ftworth has a lot of dogs and probably even more "trainers" than pooches.

The best agility trainer in Dallas seems to have a long waiting list. On top of that she picks ONLY the dogs "she" wants to work with. It's far from easy getting into her class and Jax needs work before he will even be considered. Honestly, I think Jax needs Rally first before Agility but that's way off topic for this thread.

Herding is awesome, no question and has to be a very fun and rewarding thing to do with your dog. I'm just not sure if that a direction I want to take yet for any amount of time. I'm still exploring all the things to do with Jax, much less Peyton. Truth be told, Peyton is a much "better" dog than Jax in many respects. I talk about Jax here more than her, but Peyton really is the star of the show.

LOL, I don't even know what to do with one dog, much less two. :)
 

Lizmo

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#43
There is nothing saying you can't train two dogs in agility at the same time. Or rally if that's what you want to do. Every sport is different. If you like running, agility might be for you. If you prefer more structure, rally or obedience might be for you. You might try obedience classes, to get a feel for what rally/obedience is like. I know I enjoyed the training classes I took with my older female.

Agility doesn't interest me that much, but it's something that I can train for everyday so we do it and Blaze enjoys it alot. Where as doing herding is only about every other weekend - both days of the weekend if I'm lucky.
 

JoeLacy

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#44
Well, Liz that would be a good goal if I could get both dogs on the same learning curve.

Peyton is still highly dog reactive (playmode) and in spite of everything I've tried so far, I have not been able to correct it. Jax is not dog reactive much at all.

Jax still lacks anything I would call real focus, here is Peyton's focus which you might have seen. YouTube - Peyton & focus

They are really two different dogs in temperament and ability at least at this point which compounds my confusion about what to do with both dogs at the same time.
 

Laurelin

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#45
DR shouldn't really put a hamper on agility training. I know I as well as several other members have done agility training with DR dogs. They don't have to do the same thing do they? They may have different strengths and might benefit from different kinds of training.
 

JoeLacy

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#46
DR shouldn't really put a hamper on agility training.
DR puts a damper on everything we do. Peyton is not controllable around other dogs. Her switch is flipped and not even a raw piece of steak will redirect.

It''s really the ONLY thing holding her back from really good things. She learns things in seconds.

Let me give you an example. I take them both to the DP often, 3 sometimes 4 times a week. Last week we took another route to the DP, when we go within several blocks I heard in the back seat go gaga. She knew we were close somehow even though she had never seen that street before. Most people have issues when dogs see another dog, in my case my DR problem starts before she see a dog and I can't trick her by going another way. She does not do that if we're just going out or to Moms something. She has GPS DR. :)
 

AllieMackie

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#47
DR puts a damper on everything we do. Peyton is not controllable around other dogs. Her switch is flipped and not even a raw piece of steak will redirect.
Forgive me, I forget and you post a lot of threads so I lose track on what is what.

Have you gotten the Control Unleashed book yet? It will help IMMENSELY with Peyton's focus if you work through the exercises slowly, building up threshold levels. Work on the focus games with no distractions, then on walks as people walk by, then meeting dogs one on one. You can keep building up threshold as she "gets it" at the previous level.

It takes a lot of time. Finnegan and I are still working on it around groups of dogs, but he can divert attention to me easily now on a walk when we go past people and dogs. This is several months of straight CU work.

If you haven't gotten it yet... best 20 bucks you will ever spend. Better yet, see if there is a CU class near you, seeing as the creator of Control Unleashed lives in Houston, IIRC.
 

JoeLacy

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#48
Better yet, see if there is a CU class near you, seeing as the creator of Control Unleashed lives in Houston, IIRC.
Yes, I have CU, I read the first half and she lost me. If I could take a CU class, that would be the next thing to do for sure.

On the herding, I just got off the phone with one of the trainers who referred me to this sheep lady. After she watched the video, she said she would not be referring anyone else.
 

corgipower

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#49
Yes, I have CU, I read the first half and she lost me. If I could take a CU class, that would be the next thing to do for sure.
On what aspect did she lose you?

On the herding, I just got off the phone with one of the trainers who referred me to this sheep lady. After she watched the video, she said she would not be referring anyone else.
:thumbsupsmileyanim::thumbsupsmileyanim:
 

AllieMackie

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#50
Yes, I have CU, I read the first half and she lost me. If I could take a CU class, that would be the next thing to do for sure.

On the herding, I just got off the phone with one of the trainers who referred me to this sheep lady. After she watched the video, she said she would not be referring anyone else.
Doing some Googling, I see that Leslie McDevitt Often speaks in Dallas. There's also a Control Unleashed DVD that might help you understand the book better. What parts aren't you understanding?
 

JoeLacy

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#51
Thanks for the googling. One advantage living in the city is I found a trainer that teaches CU. I've sent her and email for info.

I taught Peyton the LAT game, like a I said, it only took minutes or maybe even seconds for her to "own" that game. The problem I have is she won't LAT then look back at me when it comes to dogs. ZONED OUT at the mere thought of a dog. I should do a video.
Now I didn't do the full program, but I did teach her LAT.

I need hands on help with this, I'm not sure I would ever learn it from a book. When I ordered the CU book I asked about the DVD's. Maybe I didn't get the right answer but I was told it was just commentary on how to read your dog and that the book had photos. If I was as smart as Peyton, I probably would have it down by now.

I need to find a class for this. That's my next project, not herding.
 

corgipower

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#52
I taught Peyton the LAT game, like a I said, it only took minutes or maybe even seconds for her to "own" that game. The problem I have is she won't LAT then look back at me when it comes to dogs. ZONED OUT at the mere thought of a dog. I should do a video.
The first four thoughts that come to mind are that either she's too close to the other dog or you're timing is off or you're not being sufficiently motivational or you progressed too quickly/missed a step.

Hands on help would be ideal so that the trainer can see what's going on.
 

JoeLacy

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#54
The first four thoughts that come to mind are that either she's too close to the other dog or you're timing is off or you're not being sufficiently motivational or you progressed too quickly/missed a step.
I think it's all the above.
 

lizzybeth727

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#55
I'm about halfway through "When Pigs Fly!" by Jane Killion, which is an awesome book to read about training all dogs, not just "impossible dogs."

But yeah, an in-person trainer would be your best bet. Just make sure that whoever you pick, no matter what their references are or what kind of titles their dogs have, is a trainer that you will be able to TRUST. This is very important - if the trainer gives you a suggestion that you don't trust, that you think is pointless or stupid, you are wasting your time, the trainer's time, and most importantly Peyton's time. You will need to find a trainer that if she says "Jump off the cliff, it will cure Peyton's reactivity," you will immediately go and jump off the cliff without thinking about how stupid you feel or what we here are going to think about the trainer. You have to trust the trainer so much that if you come on here and tell us what she did, and we say how wrong that was, you should STILL trust her and not care what we say.

If you can't do all that, again, you're wasting your time and money.

You can check out Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources for an excellent article about how to pick the right trainer for you.
 

JoeLacy

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#56
I have to be very careful I get it right the very first time with Peyton. The upside with her, is she learns very quick, the downside is she learns even the wrong behaviors very quickly. There is no room for error on my part and once she knows that command it's very hard to re-train, if not impossible.

I spoke to a trainer last night on the phone and I was told taking Peyton to the DP was only making DR matters worse. Good for burning off energy but I was driving the message home that going to the DP was fun and at the DP that DR was acceptable.

The trainer also said Peyton would not understand the difference in outside the fence and inside the fence at the DP. It was all DP to her, which is why my walk up to the DP is so hard to control. That made sense to me, in other words, I cannot flood her and diminish DR, I'm only exacerbating the problem trying to flood her by taking her there several times a week.

This is a complicated behavior for me to tackle and have been totally unsuccessful so far. I need high level professional help on this one. I just don't have the expertise to do this and I hope I'm smart enough to know it.

I'm going to be brutally honest here. Peyton is more dog than I know how to train and I know in my heart that I have not helped her to reach her full potential, no where near that actually.

It would not surprise me, if she could have a 100 word vocabulary or more. Peyton is just an incredibly smart dog who loves to learn new things and loves to train with real enthusiasm and "snap". She is frankly more dog than I deserve or know what to do with. Ok, I said it...

I know, I know, everyone says they have a smart dog, but wait a second, Peyton is truly top of the top class smart and I'm wasting her potential because I can't get that DR under control.

The problem I'm having (DR) and responsibility to correct it rests on my shoulders. I'm just not enough trainer for this truly "exceptionally" bright dog is the bottom line. Peyton deserves a better trainer than myself. It took a while for me to admit that, but I know it now.

This has nothing to do with herding or Jax and we probably should get back on topic but it's one of my problems when training two dogs in the same event. Jax is much slower to train and much more primal, Peyton is super fast to train and much more intellectual. I really do have two "very" different dogs what require very different approaches and training levels.

Neither of my dogs are going to be rehomed EVER. I just need to step up MY game and I'm seeking to do that, but I need "real" help to do it for Peyton. Jax on the other hand I "think" I can handle at this point. Peyton is another matter entirely.

Who to trust is another problem. Everybody in Dallas is a dog trainer. You guys see where where "trusting a referral" got me on the HIC test. If anything, I went backwards on training Jax. Jax learned chasing sheep is ok rather than herd which should never had been allowed. I know that now, and I should have stepped in before it got out of control but I didn't know that at the time. If I did ever go forward on herding Jax I would have to retrain what he already learned about Sheep from that "referral".

I don't have that luxury with Peyton, I have to get it right the first time or do nothing at all until I "can" get it right. I'm stuck in training paralysis, I'm afraid to make a mistake and I'm loosing confidence in all these so called "experts". I need a real deal trainer for my real deal dog Peyton and I don't know who to trust anymore.

If I can find the right CU trainer, I know Peyton will take to CU like a duck to water. She would do all the exercises and love it! If that solves the DR problem, only time will tell but it's my next best guess for something that "might" work. I just need to find someone to teach us that actually "knows" what they are doing and give CU a real chance to work.
 

JoeLacy

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#57
I sent an email directly to Leslie McDevitt this morning asking for a training referral in Dallas. I decided to just go to the source.
 

ihartgonzo

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#58
I didn't read all of the posts... but I agree, that some of the stuff going on seemed unnecessary and Jax was allowed to run free WAY too soon. Gonzo was on a long line for his whole first herding sesh, because he is quite intense, like Jax. :p

Otherwise, I love Jax and your video was awesome. I loved watching him roll in something yucky. He really is a gorgeous BC, with an adorable fluffy tail! You can tell he really loves you and is always looking to make you happy.
 

JoeLacy

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#60
What I have learned since that test is that Jax should never have been allowed to chase.

What "should" have happened was that the evaluator should have had something that separates the dog and sheep and I should have held on to the long line. Because Jax would not be allowed to chase, he would be forced to show/learn what we wanted to see, that is to herd. Hindsight is 20/20 but it's pretty obvious by this video it wasn't handled properly. I've also found out that these tests are sometimes available at dog shows.

I didn't learn if Jax would herd or not, the only thing I learned was Jax would chase.
 

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